this post was submitted on 07 Jan 2025

97 points (99.0% liked)

Linux

48900 readers

1208 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.
No misinformation
No NSFW content
No hate speech, bigotry, etc

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago

MODERATORS

[email protected]

"Fedora Project Leader" position open (redhat.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com)

submitted 1 day ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

15 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 15 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] -1 points 15 hours ago

Jesus, if that job posting looks like the wall of text I just got slapped in the face with, I'll be surprised if anyone applies.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 day ago

Sorry, I use Arch BTW

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 day ago

Bro tipped his last fedora

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago

Finally my time to shine

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Why did the previous Project Leader leave?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 day ago (1 children)

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-project-leader-matthew-miller-a-change-of-hats/139422

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Thanks for this. I was worried it was IBM finally dropping the other shoe.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

Only a matter of time. Big blue moves very slowly, but reliably enshittifies anything it touches.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 day ago

He started using gentoo. Never came back to reality

[+] [email protected] -13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Ah. So MM's still in the sidelines and IBM still pulling strings, so little chance of ditching fucking systemd in Fedora, and thus RedHat. That's the one good thing I can see from a regime change: improvement of the codebase by, for example, pruning pet projects when the pets leave for Microsoft.

[+] [email protected] -8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Not sure why the downvotes on this? Systemd is bloated and known to present security risks. Don't see why looking at alternatives wouldn't be seen as positive growth.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I didn't downvote myself, but did consider it.

For one, it felt a bit out of place; Fedora isn't defined by systemd, nor Red Hat or IBM. One clear example would be how Fedora has chosen to stick with Btrfs; contrary to Red Hat's demands. Don't get me wrong, I don't deny any partnership or whatsoever. But it's not like Fedora's community has no agency.

Secondly, corsicanguppy's comment seems to imply that Fedora only sticks to systemd out of some obligation towards IBM/RedHat or something. As if the overwhelming majority of distros don't default to systemd.

Thirdly, Poettering works for M$ now. Sure. But systemd remains a Linux project. And quite a good one at that. Even if the likes of dinit and s6 are starting to offer some healthy competition, it's undeniable that systemd continues to have the advantage in terms of received man-hours (in development) and adoption. I hope that Fedora eventually gives others the chance to shine. But outright ditching systemd without a perfect replacement is just foolish.

Systemd is bloated

The bloat argument has absolutely no weight as long it's not properly defined. One's bloat is the other's sane default and vice versa. Please, if you're engaging in good faith, come up with a definition by which the likes of dinit and/or s6 are not bloated while systemd is. Please be complete and rigorous in your assessment.

and known to present security risks.

If you're referring to what's addressed in Madaidan's article, you should not forget that Whonix -the very distro Madaidan used to be a security researcher at- employed systemd to enhance security. And while one might say a lot about Poettering, one simply can't deny that they've got a sound understanding of good security standards and how to implement them. It's therefore unsurprising that both Kicksecure and secureblue (i.e. Linux' finest when it comes to hardened distros) heavily rely on systemd for their bidding.

Don’t see why looking at alternatives wouldn’t be seen as positive growth.

At least we can agree on this 😉.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Ah, I get what you mean now by inflammatory statements (after a thorough reread) and why there may have been downvotes from that. Though interestingly, I didn't feel my comment was very inflammatory and it got downvoted too. 😅

I was looking at it more from just a standpoint of systemd itself, and honestly, just looking at it from the standpoint that fedora and rhel can tend to be industry leaders for change. Honestly, if RHEL and Ubuntu together made some sort of meaningful change from a system perspective, I think we would see that move downstream.

As far as my use of the term bloated, I'm looking at it strictly from a standpoint for the amount of code that goes into the system. The more code you have, the more entries for security risks. I'm not saying that there's anything that's particularly better out there right now, but I think we should always be looking for alternatives regardless of what your views are for the people that created the code. KISS philosophy, basically. That and being open to change to avoid stagnation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 35 minutes ago

Ah, I get what you mean now by inflammatory statements

Actually, it wasn't me that said that 😅. I do find it in jrgd's reply, though.

Though interestingly, I didn’t feel my comment was very inflammatory and it got downvoted too. 😅

For the record, I also didn't downvote your comment 😜. Though, looking at how well-received my previous reply has been, I can't ignore the possibility that peeps that agreed with what I said also chose to downvote your comment.

I was looking at it more from just a standpoint of systemd itself

Sorry, I don't think I completely understood you here.

just looking at it from the standpoint that fedora and rhel can tend to be industry leaders for change.

I absolutely agree with you that Fedora and Red Hat are very effective agents of change. So yes, if they would get behind an alternative for systemd, then that would definitely get traction.

if RHEL and Ubuntu together made

Has something like this ever happened in the past? I can't recollect a collaboration of sorts between these two entities. If anything, they seem to be at odds with eachother: Mir vs Wayland, Snap vs Flatpak and even Upstart vs systemd. Though, at least so far, Red Hat holds an impressive winning track record.

I think we would see that move downstream.

Absolutely. But, and this is my inner-systemd-skeptic talking, systemd is ridiculously intertwined with the current Linux landscape and often times new updates even show a glimpse of how much more intermingling we'll get in the future. I hope we'll eventually get something to systemd like what PipeWire has been to PulseAudio. That's why development into alternatives like dinit and s6 is of utmost importance.

As far as my use of the term bloated, I’m looking at it strictly from a standpoint for the amount of code that goes into the system.

Suckless it is 😜. It's a fine definition. Thank you for that. But, I got to ask, where is the line drawn? Like, the Linux kernel, by virtue of being monolithic, has to be bloated as well. Right? So, if that's the case, is somehow the kernel's bloat okay while bloat is unaccepted for the system and service manager? If so, why? I'm genuinely curious.

The more code you have, the more entries for security risks.

Sure~ish. Deep discussion. I'm fine with giving this to ya.

I’m not saying that there’s anything that’s particularly better out there right now

I suppose some peeps will enjoy themselves with what's out there. Do you happen to use an alternative on a daily-basis?

but I think we should always be looking for alternatives regardless of what your views are for the people that created the code. KISS philosophy, basically. That and being open to change to avoid stagnation.

Wholeheartedly agree 😊.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Systemd is both in a lot more large distros than just Fedora, RHEL and has limited viable alternatives (OpenRC as a partial replacement, no others I can think of that come close). While it has its issues particularly with the extra bundled services of mixed quality, SystemD is generally a flexible and suitable option for service management on Linux.

Not to mention how inflammatory the parent comment is.