It's so wild to me that the US still has this fascist ahh ritual. Nobody told them that the godless Soviet Union fell already?
this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2024
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Literal brainwashing. It could be in a distopian movie
1984 speedrun
you are allowed to say ass
It's ok the pledge was written by a communist, but a home grown American communist
Ohhhhh nooooo it's always the "everything bad in America is because of communism" gag
What no this is more of a "American communism is a longstanding tradition and it's foolishness to brush us off as purely a capitalistic nation."
Ok now I get it, apologies
ahh
Shut the fuck up
Rude, but sometimes harsh discipline is necessary
Lol child indoctrination
I bet that kid even gets dragged to church on Sundays
So tame tho. See my other comment...
We had not only national anthems, but a whole-ass flag raising ceremony weekly. And there's even a "Little Red Scarf" ceremony once a year.
When I first came to the US, I just thought the pledge was a normal thing. But according to some Europeans on the internet, its apparantly just... not a thing in their country?
Not only is not a thing, but the rest of the world views it as distinctly odd. Performative patriotism looks a bit creepy from the outside. I guess you have to be born into it, but we all know that family who does something and remains unaware just how it looks?
There's a lot that I would say that are just crazy to me when they become inherent by definition indoctrination.
Circumcision and childhood baptism also fall into those categories for me. Want to devote yourself to a religion have at it. but how the hell is it not a huge ass red flag to encourage the major changes and opinions at an age that clearly decisions can't be made.
Baptism at least can be ignored... it's a bath at worse, a sprinkle at best. But it's still a facepalmingly stupid concept at best when the child clearly isn't the one making the decision (obviously excluding when adults decide to be baptised, I have no objections there).
Same for teaching kids to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. Same for "teach them to love their country etc...".
No you know what, teach them accurate history of their country, and of other countries. When they have understanding of it, let them compare, see what our country does good, did bad, with context of what other countries did that was good, and bad.
Even being born into it, it feels weird. I'll stand politely when the national anthem is played at a sporting event, because that feels only slightly odd. But the pledge of allegiance always gave me straight cult vibes, no thanks.
I've seen multiple groups of Australians treat their national anthem with mild irreverence, which feels so much healthier.
As an Australian I can confirm this. Anybody silly enough to act patriotic in any group will be sledged mercilessly.
It's completely not a thing in any country I've visited except America. You guys are the gold ribbon looniest.
You guys are the gold ribbon looniest.
Aw, shucks. Thanks!
I realize it's not a compliment, but we need a win, right now, so we will take it.
That's the nicest thing I've agreed with being said about my country in over a month. Thank you, kind stranger!
But according to some Europeans on the internet, its apparantly just... not a thing in their country?
It used to be a thing in my country... back when it was under a fascist dictatorship.
"just say the words" really sums up the problem.
Same vibes as ‘because I said so’
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.
[...]
Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.
Justice Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
While it's true that this ritual is commonly practiced in the US, it is also true that everyone has the protected right to not participate, which has been upheld in court (Frazier v. Alexandre).
Personally, I feel that choosing to exercise your civil rights is a highly patriotic act.
One of my favorite truisms: One thing the flag stands for is you don't have to stand for the flag.
A certain part of your population seems to have forgotten that.
Most people are actually pretty stupid when you think about it. Myself included.
Well stop thinking about it.
This is a great line, very succinct.
I'd say you guys value patriotism too much. Typical of an empire too.
Btw, it's what gave rise to the Nazis (among other factors).
Try Nationalism/Jingoism; Patriots actually stand up to their own country's BS
Too much patriotism is because too little of everything else
I would say that patriotism in small amounts can be beneficial as it can drive you to improve your country, but patriotism in too large of amounts would drive you to ignore its flaws
Patriotism is borderline discrimination.
Right except most kids and teachers don't know about that so the kid still gets forced to do it
Even if they knew - the hurdle is too high for a kid to go through. And even if they did - they'll probably face retribution from the school for dragging them to court.
Yeah i didn't partake starting when as a teenager I saw Germans on thr internet expressing concern about it. Nobody said anything it was my right as an American not to pledge my allegiance to America.
I was 8 when I moved to the US. It was bizarre. Obviously, as an outsider, I felt I had to fit in. I never questioned it. I didn't understand it. I just said the words.
I guess at some point you understand the words (I left the US before then), but by that point it's probably become a habit. It's still the thing that everyone else in the class does. And you still want to fit in.
Never mind understanding the politics of the US that you have the right to not do something that is habitual and seems completely normal.
That we make children say this shit reveals how demented we are.
Lol, the US seems tame by comparison.
I remember in China in like first or second grade, we had a whole ceremony in the school yard where they put on the little red scarf thingy on the kids (Google it: "China Little Red Scarf" and see what I meant; edit: I google it and found this wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneers_of_China), after singing the natioal anthem and watching the kids do the the whole flag raising ritual. Idk what the f was even happening at the time, but restrospectively, that felt like joining the Jonestown Cult.
(While that "little red scarf" ceremony was a one time thing, the flag raising ceremony was more frequent. I don't remember exact how frequent, but I'm gonna guess like maybe every monday. Cuz I remember sneaking out before they had us go to the school yard, and I just kinda just chill at some "vantage point" where I can see the kids in the school yard, while I just chilled, outside of the sun. I mean, I probably just didn't feel like being in the school yard and being in the sun, cuz its feels like being cooked alive in the heat.)
That uh, does seem more tame than the US.
The pledge was every single morning, in my experience AFTER the national anthem and a moment of silence. We had to stand for the whole thing. (And in Texas, also have to do a Texas pledge)
Then if course we had our insanely biased teaching of history, minimizing our genocide and slavery. Forcing us to learn about important founders to a degree that they become sort of semi-god figures.
That's very strange. In the schools I've been to it was just the pledge, and you don't have to stand. They aren't legally allowed to force you to stand or say it, but some schools do anyway.
That's part of the problem of states handling everything so differently. In New York, I had the pledge every morning, that's pretty much national, but nothing else almost ever outside of sports (national anthem). Not only did they know you didn't have to stand, they taught us that in history class.
How can you come together "as a nation" when your education from state to state can be completely different.
So the US has a slightly lighter propaganda ritual than an actual nationalistic dictatorship. Their religious nutjobs are also slightly less evil than the Taliban. What a country! /s
It's so creepy that we still do this
I grew up in the States but never was a citizen. In second grade after a while of this silly ceremony I asked the teacher if I really had to participate, because it didn't really apply to me. And the teacher was totally cool with it!
It was even wierder afterwards, being the only one sitting and watching everyone.