I love that we have hundred people saying that English is the past and irrelevant... Needing to use English to share that though.
this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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tbf, the Japanese proficiency of English-speaking nations is probably lower.
It is a tricky language. Almost nothing in common with Indo-European languages except loan words. Completely different grammatical structure. Three different writing scripts.
At least the pronunciation isn't too bad coming from English as all the usual sounds are represented within our phonology. Compared to Spanish rolling R's, Russian and Arabic consonant clusters, Chinese tonality, and other difficult to pronounce languages.
as all the usual sounds are represented within our phonology
Is what you'd think, but nope. Their r, sh, j, ch and w and u sounds are slightly different from English (enough so that some languages have the English version and the Japanese version as independent sounds), the lone n consonant has a pronunciation not existent in English, and Japanese has a tone system but it's simple enough a foreigner can get by without knowing it. That is to say, Japanese pronunciation is very different from English and decently hard to master, but if you just pronounce it like you would English (without stress of course, absolutely don't add stress) you shouldn't have a problem getting your point across.
Russian and Arabic consonant clusters
Wait Arabic consonant clusters? If anything Arabic has less consonant clusters than English. As a native Arabic speaker what I would think is a problem for English natives is the consonants themselves, because we have a lot of them and many don't exist in English.
I would think is a problem for English natives is the consonants themselves, because we have a lot of them and many don’t exist in English.
I am not an Arabic speaker at all, but one of the few amusing points of the Iraq war was that absolutely no one in the U.S. media could agree on how to pronounce Qatar. There were even segments on how to pronounce it. They didn't agree with each other.
Of course, they never actually put someone who spoke Arabic on TV to get them to pronounce it properly. They probably couldn't anyway considering the intelligence level of news anchors I've worked with.
Thanks for confirming. I don't speak Japanese but my sister studied it for a few years, and according to her, teachers were always impressed with her perfect pronunciation. We're both native Spanish speakers in an English speaking country. From what I gather, Japanese phonology has more in common with Spanish or Italian than with English.
It's is often said that Spanish and Japanese pronunciation is actually very similar. I learn japanese, and last saw it when learning the vocab item スペイン語 on wanikani.
That vocab is Spanish as language.
Pitch accent isn't a tone system, also ん can he pronounced in way too many ways.
also ん can he pronounced in way too many ways
If English speakers¹ can deal with oo being pronounced at least six different ways (moon, book, door, blood, cooperation, brooch) they should be able to deal with this...
1— Disclaimer: as a non native speaker, I not only can't deal with it, but at this point have absolutely no intention to.
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I know Watashi ga kita!, Baaaka!, and Omae wa mou... shindeiru.
That seems like it should be enough to cover most conversations, according to my research.
NANI!?
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English classes are required (I think from elementary school as of a few years ago) but, from talking to a lot of teachers in my time here, the actual teachers just use the English speakers they bring over here to parrot phrases and won't let them actually correct things like pronunciation in a lot of cases. I know many Japanese who think the whole program (JET) is a waste, and I'm inclined to agree in its current state.
Japan is like 98.5% Japanese the last time I looked it up. English is completely unnecessary in Japan outside of some very specific jobs and on certain entrance exams (which are also just there for the sake of the test). If a child doesn't want to learn and the quality of the education is lacking, even with all the money dumped into it, it's useless. Back during the bubble economy ending in the '90s it may have been different, but job prospects requiring English outside of hospitality, tourism, and some specific medical and government jobs are non-existent. Even then, it often makes more sense to use a translator or to keep one on staff.
Japan either needs to get serious about its English education or just stop wasting money on an ineffective program and focus resources into classes or schools to develop people who actually want to learn. I say this as someone whose taxes fund it.
I was reading the book by Chris Broad of the Travel Abroad YouTube about his experience teaching in Japan. You're totally correct. It's really a faux pas to correct a teacher as a foreigner teaching English. So the teacher would give say the wrong thing, and you'd just nod.
Not to mention, from Chris, the Japanese tests for English are really stupid. They're teaching them with tests from the 80s, and using words that aren't common in spoken language.
I've seen uni entrance exam tests and it's definitely just there for the test -- no one speaks the way they do in those. I was never a teacher, though, so I'm just going on what my friends say (my wife hated English class and never paid attention, so she doesn't remember much).
To be fair, the JLPT also tends to include outdated Japanese, so there's that as well.
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Which is ironic given how many English loanwords have infiltrated the language in recent times, to the point where sometimes I hear Japanese speak in a not overly formal context and half of the words they say are just English words with Japanese pronunciation.
Same in Pakistan. People tend to use a lot of English words in Urdu, even when an equivalent native word exists. For example, the proper way to say "What's the time?" is "کیا وقت ہوا ہے؟" ("kiya waqat hawa hay?"). But a lot of people will say "کیا ٹائم ہے؟" ("kiya time hay?") instead. But of course, there are also loanwords such as "واشنگ مشین" (washing machine) and "کمپیوٹر" (computer).
Having learned both english and now in the process of learning Japanese, katakana English is so confusing sometimes. It's kind of correct when you don't think about what's actually written, but you sometimes have to think long to understand that an エアコン (eakon) is just an air con(dition).
True. Also doesn't help when you sometimes mix up シ(shi) and ツ (tsu) because the font (or someone else's handwriting) makes them look very similar.
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Loans from French (either old French or Norman French, some borrowed into/from Latin on either side) comprise a huge amount of English vocab. Does that mean we speak French?
(yes, I know there's a video out there arguing that English is just bad/weird French and no I don't agree with it).
Having lots of loaned words don’t mean much when English and Japanese have vastly different grammatical structures. There are also lots of non-English loaned words in Japanese, and from experience, the Japanese don’t always know which language a word is borrowed from, nor should the speakers of the language really need to care. In any case, grammar makes up an important part of a language, though it doesn’t come for free if you aren’t already exposed to the grammatical structure before.
Makes me wonder what America's or England's proficiency in Japanese is.
It's still higher than the United States.
Funny. Joking aside, I don't think England, Ireland, the US, and Canada were tested.
And, to be fair, there are millions of U.S. citizens who speak English as a second language.
About 1 in 10 according to the U.S. census do not speak English at home.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/12/languages-we-speak-in-united-states.html
Spanish is first, Chinese a distant second. I am guessing there are also plenty of indigenous people, especially in Alaska considering its isolation, who primarily speak native languages at home.
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A friend of mine went to "the states" a year, somewhere in the early nineties and she was accused of cheating because she came in top tier on the english test ...
We were n°1 back then though, sweden has really lost it, plummeting off the podium to fourth place smh 😔
the English proficiency of young people in the country is stagnant compared to other countries and regions.
Seems like my gut was right, that it's less because they're regressing, and more because other countries have been increasing theirs.
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Brasil is higher than Japan?? It's Japan that don't care to learn English because they can do "everything" in their country without the need to know english?
Is it really that surprising? If you've ever played a video game before, you'd know that pretty much every Brazilian speaks English.
So, for comparison, how do English speaking countries rank in ability to speak Japanese?
Japanese isn't widely adopted across the Internet as the default language, so this comparison is irrelevant.
I'm only familiar with Western Internet, but if you don't understand English, you're isolating yourself from large parts of the world.
Would probably be more relevant to measure English-speaking countries' ability to speak whatever the most commonly studied foreign language is, rather than Japanese. That would also probably need a caveat of eliminating native speakers and/or heritage speakers from the data set in some countries, as well.
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