Is he going to plant the numbers or is he going to pull the USSR referendum shtick and do what the masters demand anyway?
this post was submitted on 02 Aug 2024
92 points (96.9% liked)
GenZedong
4294 readers
175 users here now
This is a Dengist community in favor of Bashar al-Assad with no information that can lead to the arrest of Hillary Clinton, our fellow liberal and queen. This community is not ironic. We are Marxists-Leninists.
This community is for posts about Marxism and geopolitics (including shitposts to some extent). Serious posts can be posted here or in /c/GenZhou. Reactionary or ultra-leftist cringe posts belong in /c/shitreactionariessay or /c/shitultrassay respectively.
We have a Matrix homeserver and a Matrix space. See this thread for more information. If you believe the server may be down, check the status on status.elara.ws.
Rules:
- No bigotry, anti-communism, pro-imperialism or ultra-leftism (anti-AES)
- We support indigenous liberation as the primary contradiction in settler colonies like the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Israel
- If you post an archived link (excluding archive.org), include the URL of the original article as well
- Unless it's an obvious shitpost, include relevant sources
- For articles behind paywalls, try to include the text in the post
- Mark all posts containing NSFW images as NSFW (including things like Nazi imagery)
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
His masters are both the USA and the Nazis. He's trying to save his skin by blaming the people, the Nazis have already threatened his life if he gives up land. The US wants to fight to the last Ukrainian.
Yeah, but then the Nazis aren't known for respecting any democratic participation, thus their response, or at least what they'd wish to do, would be staging a military coup - which is somewhat similar to option 2. And, if that is to be used as justification for entering surrender talks, the Kiev junta must be either ready to deal with any Nazi coup attempts, or in no mood to have honest talks.
This is why the ukranian state has been trying to kill as many nazis as they can within there own ranks;
See the abondment of avoz in the steel mill, and the couple of times they've bombed azov prisoners trying to kill them.
They didn't abandon Azov in the steel plant, they went to great lengths to try to extract them actually, they tried breaking out by force, they tried sneaking out, they tried rescuing them by helicopter, they tried negotiating for Russia to open a corridor to Ukrainian controlled territory, they even tried going to beg the "international community" and even the pope to intercede on their behalf. The Russians were having none of it and would only accept surrender. Azov, at least at that time, was considered one of the most politically important units for the Kiev regime.
The reason why they bombed Azovites in Russian prisons is so they couldn't tell any tales about the war crimes they committed and who ordered/gave them permission to do so. It was a necessary sacrifice and probably done by Azov themselves.
As for whether Kiev is trying to get rid of them now, yes there's an argument to be made for that based on how they keep sending them to the most difficult sections of the front, but i don't find that argument convincing for two reasons:
Firstly, i think the actual reason they keep sending them all over the place to put out fires is because they are one of the last properly trained and equipped units that Kiev has, kind of like the SS for Nazi Germany late in WW2. They have no other effective units with which to plug holes and delay the collapse of whole sections of the front.
Secondly, they hardly ever were actually sent into the most dangerous frontline fighting. Where they need meat they send some unfortunate souls who were forcefully mobilized and got a couple days of "training". Azov usually stays further away from the front and functions as a blocking detachment. And when they were sent into actually dangerous situations, like when Avdeyevka was about to fall, they simply refused to obey the orders and retreated. The fact they were never punished for that indicates that they and their political patrons still have enormous sway in the Kiev regime.
In my opinion they are still a vital unit for keeping the rest of the army from mutinying, acting as ideological enforcers and punitive squads (torturing and executing defectors, partisans, etc.), and generally being the last line of defense for the Kiev regime in case of an uprising or a regime change attempt by rival Ukrainian factions (or second to last, because the actual last line are probably western special forces).
So no, i don't think that the Nazis are being purposely eliminated, at least not by Ukraine. They are the political and military backbone of the regime.
Thats a fair perspective, I do still think both can be true though, some of the bombings of azov soldiers where likely the result of the ukranian state seeing an opportunity to kill potential coup-ers.
I wouldnt be suprised if this conflict between the two factions comes to a head soon.
Agreed. The closer they get to defeat the more internal strife we will see and the more desperate Zelensky and his inner circle will be to eliminate potential threats to their power from any other factions, even once close allies.
(thank you)
Do the people in the disputed territories in question get to vote? If so it feels like it would definitely be approved right?
Dual-citizenship between Russia and Ukriane isn't a thing. Everyone in Russian-controlled territory has Russian passports now. Since July 1st 2024, those still holding Ukrainian passports are considered foreign nationals and at risk of deportation.
Map of disputed regions (South-East of red line)
Sure, but Ukraine surely wouldn't take a referendum on the status of a region without taking the wishes of the long-standing residents of that region under advisement, right? That'd be some Nazi shit.
Like just to be clear, I expect the Banderite regime to absolutely exclude Crimeans and the people of the Donbass from this referendum, I just think it's a farce to hold a referendum on the fate of a people and specifically exclude them from voting on it.
The only reason they are doing a referendum is because otherwise Russia won't accept negotiating. If Zelensky's government negotiates peace with Russia, then the next Ukrainian government can reject the treaty on the grounds that Zelensky was not elected in office at the time.
Besides legitimazing himself, Zelensky is also trying to shift the blame around. With a referendum, it's not him that gave up Ukrainian territory to Russia, it's everyone.
I wouldn't expect much consideration to go into how this referendum is going to be made, as its results won't really change anything. The point is just to declare that a referendum was made.
This makes a lot of sense, I hadn't considered the possibility that this is just to make it harder for future governments to try to claim any agreements are void/illegitimate, but I can totally see this being a hedge against such a thing.
They'll definately ask those living in the minor parts of the disputed regions controlled by Ukraine. Asking Russian citizens (who they perceive as traitors) in Russian land, I highly doubt.
Of course, he will reject Nato membership right away – he started the war because of it. Yet, there won’t be a better moment as things stand now
Some people just want to see the world burn
I seriously doubt there will be any such referendum. I think this is just more cope, another desperate attempt to get some sort of "freeze" of the conflict now that Russia's advance is picking up pace. My gut feeling is they hope to pull off another Minsk-like ruse, but it's probably too little too late. Russia may go through the motions of pretending like this is a serious thing, but i don't see them accepting anything but a complete capitulation now that their war machine is starting to kick into high gear. Putin was not lying when he said iirc over a year ago "we haven't really started anything in earnest yet". Well now they have started and i don't think they'll stop anymore until all objectives are achieved.
it's going well over there huh
Holding a referendum on this is pure cowardice. Zelenskkky insists on being the President of Ukraine to the point that opposition parties are banned and no presidential elections are being held. But now, since there is an unsavory choice to make which puts him at risk of running afoul of either the Russians, his own citizens, or his western handlers, he decides to have the Ukrainian public make the decision for him through a majority vote. Now, he can just wash his hands of everything. Here I was thinking it was the job of the head of state to make tough calls, but it seems the comedy president isn't up for the task. Who would have thought?
If it will be a fair election, I'm curious to see what they will do if it will show that many people are willing to concede territory to Russia.
I think at this point even Zelensky must know that Ukraine can't win. The referendum could be a face-saving (and life-saving) way for him to negotiate some sort of compromise with Russia.
I remember reading that they are legally required to hold a referendum before acquiescing territory but I could be hallucinating
It's so joever 
Assuming that the referendum will be fair, it would essentially be a referendum on surrender. Would the Ukrainian population vote in favour of this? They're losing and would benefit immensely from peace but nobody likes being run over by a foreign army, even if your own leaders are pricks and Ukrainian society has been seeping in fascist Endsieg-propaganda since long before the Russian intervention in the civil war.
And that is assuming that the vote will be fair, which can not be expected.
If anything, this referendum could end up as a morale booster to the pro-war camp and prolong the suffering rather than the beginning of a peace process.
Zelensky is a well-known Kremlin agent
"But Zelensky did this, not Putin, so he's still winning"
It's all fun and games until workers start getting plucked from your businesses in order to keep the frontline filled.