An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)
Same goes for any technology, from power loom to AI.
Convincing the working class it's the tools that are the problem, and not the system that abuses them (both working class, and tools), is one of capitalism's greatest achievements.
https://www.globallearning-cuba.com/blog-umlthe-view-from-the-southuml/marx-on-automated-industry
Yep, I just didn't know how to add that succinctly to the title π
You're good, the point is clear, was just adding info. π
Ironically the Luddites were very aware the system was the problem, they made system changing demands.
Mainstream history has decided to make them into a terrified of new technology pastiche of the truth.
Convincing the working class that tools the system creates are free of the systemβs agenda may be an even greater achievement.
Conspiring to jack up rent prices is exploitative when people do it. Is it any different when the RealPage algorithm does it indirectly?
I donβt see any value in saying that human behavior is the problem but then specifically carving out an exception for the automated agents we create to amplify specific behaviors.
When RedBubble ganks art and sells it on t-shirts, how is that different from when Stability ganks art and sells it at a text prompt?
the RealPage algorithm
Which was programmed by humans, with biases and vested interests based in and fuelled by capitalism and the rest of the kyriarchy
I donβt see any value in saying that human behavior is the problem but then specifically carving out an exception for the automated agents we create to amplify specific behaviors.
Human behaviours. Machines don't have their own behaviours, only those humans have programmed them to have, again, with those same biases and vested interests based in and fuelled by capitalism and the rest of the kyriarchy
When RedBubble ganks art and sells it on t-shirts, how is that different from when Stability ganks art and sells it at a text prompt?
It isn't, both are automated systems designed by humans, you guessed it - with those same biases and vested interests based in and fuelled by capitalism and the rest of the kyriarchy
Convincing the working class that tools the system creates are free of the systemβs agenda may be an even greater achievement.
And only picking examples of ways in which technology is used that are explicitly for profit is cherry picking and twisting reality. The existence of things like FOSS and other ways in which people share technology or otherwise use it to improve society without any profit motive proves you wrong.
AI isn't intrinsically capitalist, just like computers aren't, nor were steam engines or power looms. Capitalism convincing you that its way is the only way to use tools doesn't mean that's the reality, it only means the propaganda is working.
So is RealPage not a tool, or are tools not inherently agenda-less?
Iβm not saying all technology is bad, but I am saying all technology is biased.
And Iβm not saying all AI must be exploitative, but its mechanics are such that the easiest path forward for it is exploitative.
I'll repost comment I did recently:
I remember how few yesrs ago I said "capitalism exists because perfect replicators do not exist". Eventually I realised that perfect replicators of information already exist and capitalists made sure we can't use them against capitalism.
When computers became mainstream and all sorts of media got into the open Web, many have seen this as the end of copyright history.
But it wouldn't be capitalism if it wouldn't build sophisticated instruments and twist legislation in unprecedented ways only to protect publishers.
Nooooo we don't want to do critical thinking and systemic analysis of root causes! Modernity bad! People lived better before antibiotics! Math is evil! /s
What do you mean capitalism WAS a misstake? Did I miss a memo?
Yes, Das Kapital by Marx.
Doesn't he specifically say capitalism is an improvement over pre-capitalism and a necessary step for industrialized society to reach socialism? He wouldn't have called it a mistake unless he was really pissed
Yes you are correct. I usually interpret people who say "capitalism was a mistake" to mean "to continue to peruse unregulated free market capitalism in light of all the evidence that is causes harm was a mistake". I interpret it this way because I have never seen anyone who was seriously advocating for feudalism. I have seen a lot of people seriously advocating for socialism, communion, or unregulated free market capitalism.
I figured you were one of the free market capitalist type when reading your initial comment because it seemed like your point was very nit-picky on the meme.
Were you concerned that this meme was being made by someone who wants to return to feudalism?
In debian and graphene we trust
Tech won't save us! (The podcast with the same title is very recommandable)
Capitalism was a necessary step in the development of socialism. It wasn't a mistake, it's just run its course. Just a technicality I know and I shouldn't overanalyze but I felt it was worth stating
That's like saying "everything happens for a reason" to someone whose whole family has just been murdered.
No. Capitalism was never necessary.
We were never going to transition directly from feudal society to socialism, the peasant class could not organize in those conditions to rise up against their opressor. Capitalism developed the material conditions necessary for a truly liberatory revolution rather than a passing over of keys from one ruler to another.
Yes capitalism is responsible for truly horrific things, that is why it needs to be dismantled and replaced. However, it also concentrated the working class into closer quarters and developed the machinary necessary to move past scarcity.
Sure yeah maybe we could have transitioned from hunter gatherer society to socialist agrarianism and never developed the power structures we see today but that didn't happen for a reason. Agriculture solved the food problem of hunter gatherer societies, feudalism solved the military problem of early agrarian societies that left them vulnerable, capitalism solved the technological development problem of feudalist societies that caused them to stagnate and socialism will solve the resource problem that causes capitalist societies to constantly murder eachother and themselves. Note all of these social structures caused the problems that necessitated the next reorganization of society.
Also, telling someone who isn't already socialist/communist/anarchist that capitalism was a mistake will seem rediculous if they live a comfortable life.
Except the peasant classes did rise up many times, and were repeatedly betrayed by the petit bourgeois and pushed back down in order to establish capitalism more fully.
Plus, lots of the benefits of capitalism that people felt were really using imperialism and colonialism to import benefits and export suffering - not an actual increase in overall comfort or "good".
Classical Marxist historical materialism is, honestly a load of bunk.
Yeah, but you're talking to an authoritarian, so lots of people being hurt for the benefit of the few is always "necessary"
But nothing is actually necessary. It depends on what you want to achieve.
The speed of innovation might have gotten a big impulse by capitalism; I'm not sure if we'd technologically be where we are now otherwise. Of course one could argue that we do not need tech in its current form, which is fair.
But nothing is actually necessary. It depends on what you want to achieve.
Food, water, shelter, sustainability, those are necessary (as are human rights and an equal, equitable, and just society), commodifying the necessities of existence and survival of the human race to make a handful of people massive amounts of money and power never has been, and never will be, necessary.
The speed of innovation might have gotten a big impulse by capitalism
Lmmfao
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2020/08/how-capitalism-stifles-innovation
Iβm not sure if weβd technologically be where we are
Lmmfao again, thanks
Truth is you've been brainwashed, by capitalism to think it is a good, necessary, and even natural thing, when in truth it has existed for the tiniest blips in human history (and in its short existence has cost, and continues to cost tens of millions of lives annually, not to mention the health of the planet, and that of the remaining working class), and you've been taken in by an appeal to tradition, rather than truth or reality, to ensure you don't start considering what is outside of the box, or system, you've been trapped in since birth.
And evidently, it's worked.
Wow wow, easy now haha. I don't think capitalism is good or necessary (although if things in general happen, it's part of nature in some way).
I only think it might have sped up innovation, which is also not per se good or bad. But there are probably more possible drivers / factors to that. I know for example that in a communist approach, innovation can be driven by giving the best performing team the lead on architectural decisions. Which is interesting.
My main point was though that nothing is necessary. I fully support human rights, but on a philosophical level they are not necessary. We just want them to be important, we call them necessary.
were soviet computers ruined too?