Collapse

Seriously. I don't really enjoy people that decide the world is so fucked that the only option is to end specific populations.

The entire population of the planet could fit in a space similar in size to Rhode Island and be fed by a chunk of land as large as New York but math can be used to make all kinds of statements that are only useful in theory.

We have who we have and logistics need to be figured out for including them not shoveling them off to the pasture. However we can still educate people that quickly raising the population further is a dangerous game but population growth is happening in nations that aren't taking the resources.

We need to start distributing resources more effectively, not culling people.

This is exactly what I argue and the removed study supports it as well imo.

Let me ask you this: if you believe the earth has exceeded its carrying capacity, wouldn’t your conclusion be to start getting rid of people or halting their reproduction? That’s textbook eugenics…

No. First you look at where the strains are. You see that people with exceptional privilege in developed countries create extremely disproportionate strain, and that the capitalists support the increased reproduction of that group - even without their consent - to keep their ponzi scheme running. You would then seek to divert resources from the over-privileged group to reduce their disproportionate strain, and a proven way to reduce resource demands among them is to prioritize family planning measures and bodily autonomy in the hegemonic states. This reproductive care and agency is, of course, only one piece of the puzzle that is deconstructing colonialism and emissions inequity.

The removed study gives a nod to this by acknowledging that otherwise viable solutions are not politically viable. The consequences of the politically viable (Business-As-Usual) solutions is at least as much of a humanitarian nightmare. And yet, the limits exist. What does this indicate? That politically nonviable solutions (such as degrowth in developed nations, and/or revolution and a new economic framework) need to be re-examined. That we're between a rock and a hard place, and that the default trajectory does lead to ecofascist solutions.

Requesting a reduction of resource demands even if it means the lowered reproduction of the most privileged socioeconomic classes is no more eugenics than creating an inhospitable planet and accepting the consequential deaths of the billions of people who are not able to support themselves under such conditions. Plenty of studies demonstrate that humans are able to naturally adapt their reproductive rates based on their environments, and other studies show that this is happening right now in over-developed states where people manage to retain reproductive agency. What is disastrous for us as a collective whole is how capital circumvents our natural tendencies in order to augment industrial productivity and the retention of the control of power structures within a select ethnonationalist ingroup.

A different but related issue at present is that reproductive rates are driven through the roof by capitalists looking to exploit weakly organized labor, which drives unnaturally high birth rates in some developing nations exploited by foreign corporations. However, the reality is that the inflated populations in developing countries are still less destructive than the declining (not including immigration) populations of the developed nations. Which then brings us back again to more agency and more equitable distribution of resources, and the natural balance of reproductive adaptations that follow reversing colonialism.

Billionaires*

As the argument of population control is one I think not at all worth having for many of reasons, such as, you just can’t do much about it!

I've often argued a similar line. This topic is notorious for bringing out bad-faith posters trying to shape the narrative. Sometimes it seems hardly worth discussing to me as well. Especially among redditors which is what I was used to for many years. But to not be able to discuss it at all is too much for me as a mod, especially when those who would take advantage of us discuss it freely.

And it will become reality easy enough if it becomes mandatory and that’s sad enough.

My concern is that there are still different ways that this can all go down, and that we aren't charting towards handling the crisis in a wise and humane manner. We're basically blindly following capitalists into the void. And acting "naively" (following systemic biases) is not moral or ethical in our position. People are already dying of exposure today, in our local communities and around the world. It is the most disadvantaged that suffers most and it will continue to be that way unless something is changed.

But I guess if we find ourselves truly not welcome here anymore than it seems we would just have to move with you guys.

Whatever works best for everyone involved.

Okay then, what do you propose we do if you believe we’ve overshot our carrying capacity?

You mean what to do to improve the average quality of life?

Anti-colonial, anti-hegemonic action. Which I am always happy to discuss. It will just have to occur in a different space.

I don't believe that we've very significantly overshot our global ecosystem carrying capacity. Especially post-fossil. It's a fact outlined in many numbers in thousands of peer reviewed publications.

As to what we could collectively do: sadly, very little. The overall system has almost no degrees of freedom left. You're mostly down to personal and community scale choices. Small things.

Not going to continue to discuss that here though.