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submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

Lately I’m running into more and more situations where I am forced to patronize a private company in the course of doing a transaction with my government. For example, a government office stops accepting cash payment for something (e.g. a public parking permit). Residents cannot pay for the permit unless they enter the marketplace and do business with a private bank. From there, the bank might force you to have a mobile phone (yes, this is common in Europe for example).

Example 2:

Some gov offices require the general public to call them or email them because they no longer have an open office that can be visited in person. Of course calling means subscribing to phone service (payphones no longer exist). To send an email, I can theoretically connect a laptop to a library network and use my own mail server to send it, but most gov offices block email that comes from IP that Google/SpamHaus/whoever does not approve, thus forcing you to subscribe to a private sector service in order to do a public transaction. At the same time, snail-mail is increasingly under threat & fax is already ½ dead.

Example 3:

A public university in Denmark refuses access to some parts of the school’s information systems unless you provide a GSM number so they can do a 2FA SMS. If a student opposes connecting to GSM networks due to the huge attack surface and privacy risks, they are simply excluded from systems with that limitation & their right to a public education is hindered. The school library e-books are being bogarted by Cloudflare’s walled garden, where a private company restricts access to the books based on factors like your IP address & browser.

Example 4:

Twitter decides who may microblog to their public representatives.

So where are my people?

So, I’m bothered by this because most private companies demonstrate untrustworthyness & incompetence. I think I should be able to disconnect and access all public services with minimal reliance on the private sector. IMO the lack of that option is injustice. There is an immeasurably huge amount of garbage tech on the web subjecting people to CAPTCHAs, intrusive ads, dysfunctional javascript, dark patterns, etc. Society has proven inability to counter that and it will keep getting worse. I think the ONLY real fix is to have a right to be offline. The power to say:

*“the gov wants to push this broken reCAPTCHA that forces me to feed a surveillance capitalist


no thanks. Give me an offline private-sector-free way to do this transaction”*

There is substantial chatter in the #fedi about all the shit tech being pushed on us & countless little tricks and hacks to try to sidestep it. But there is almost no chatter about the real high-level solution which would encompass two rights:

  1. a right to be free from the private sector marketplace; and
  2. the right to be offline

Of course there could only be very recent philosophers who would think of the right to be offline. But I wonder if any philosophers in history have published anything influential as far as the right to not be forced into the private sector marketplace. By that, I don’t mean anti-capitalism (of course that’s well covered).. but I mean given the premise is that you’re trapped inside a capitalist system, there would likely be bodies of philosophy aligned with rights/powers to boycott.

(update) The famous Leary quote “Turn on, tune in, drop out” seems to be kind of consistent in an abstract way. Not necessarily as far as the ideology but in inspiring action.

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[-] [email protected] 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I have a book of essays on this topic (sorta) that I've been meaning to read but I haven't gotten to it yet. If you want to get ahead of me, it's called Resisting the Virtual Life. I found it in a local used bookstore.

The kicker though, is that it's from 1995! so it may be less relevant now, but I'm excited to see what issues they foresaw.

Beyond that I don't know. But I'm sure more modern thinkers have talked about it. I'll have to scan and upload my copy of Resisting the virtual life... it doesn't seem to be on LibGen

[-] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago

A lot of cyberpunk stories explicitly deal with this problem. It was foreseen and mapped out exhaustively decades ago. To their credit most authors weren't cynical enough to imagine how horrifically bad things would get. I'd suggest looking in to Modi's attempts to get rid of cash in India as a means of social control. It'd be a good starting point for the state of the art in using identity as a weapon of oppression.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yeah, its always funny to me when people are like "oh this is a modern phenomenon people of the past wouldn't understand it" like nah not really. Shit is A) predictable, and B) analagous shit has happened for the past 150 years at least

I should check out what's happening in india though

[-] [email protected] 20 points 2 years ago

We hate our public-private partnerships, don't we folks?

[-] [email protected] 17 points 2 years ago

it's impossible to answer a fundamentally anticapitalist question without reference to anticapitalist works. governments aren't accidentally tying their services to private corporations - this was a theorized, planned, and executed strategy to hobble the public sector and destroy public institutions. they're not going to suddenly roll that back because some people want to opt out. you can't opt out of privatization because it makes the capitalists too much money to prevent you from opting out. our world is driven by profit, not the whims of it's denizens, however much we wish it to be different.

if you want to be able to opt out, help us abolish capitalism. there are no alternatives.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago

As someone who hopes to never own a smartphone I'm also very interested in these questions and hope to see what this thread digs up.

James Bridle's New Dark Age isn't exactly what you're looking for but you may like the way he thinks. Review: https://theintercept.com/2018/11/24/james-bridle-new-dark-age-review/

Some googling turns up these books: https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/the-other-side-of-the-digital

https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/off-the-network

Despite being published in 1976, Herbert Schiller's Communication and Cultural Domination might be relevant, too.

(The only one of these I've read myself so far is the Bridle.)

[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

As someone who hopes to never own a smartphone

I'm jealous tbh

My android phone broke recently and I'm holding out on getting a new one. I'm using a linux phone now tux which has basically no commercial software even written for it. The experience is objectively dogshit but I kinda like that it is lol. I'm stuck between wanting to set everything, or at least most things, that I had before up on this phone (for now I've skipped setting up email, and it doesn't really do social media apps or anything), and wanting to pare it down even further and get rid of some of the bullshit I have hacked together for my job, etc. Having a phone that can get work-related alerts at all hours (though I would turn most off at night on android just for the sake of sleep) is definitely a curse, but it also allows me to slack off during the day more without risking missing messages and looking like I'm not working at all. Such is the conundrum I guess.

One of the things that prevents me from just getting rid of the smartphone entirely (besides liking having internet access for if I get lost or want to look something up or what have you) is the desire for privacy in my communications. Text messages are just so insecure, calls have more legal protections but of course can still be trivially spied on by the government, etc. But I can have some semblance of privacy if I have a smarter device that runs encrypted messaging software such as matrix or signal (I'm definitely becoming more skeptical of signal though as a honeypot or something... the requirement to have an android/ios phone and phone number seems perfectly designed to make sure there's always backdoor access to your communications via the OS). Like I have no business being this paranoid, but otoh I should have privacy by default and if being paranoid is the only way I can claw some of it back then so be it.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago
[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

All of this is absolutely true and, having worked in institutions that worked like this (both a european bank and a university, as examples) I am pretty sure that it's weaponized incompetence.

Abihail Thorn had a pretty good book about this strategy in the context of the british medical system (with some philosophical references.

In essence, the argument goes that instead of having a funcrionning system, modern technology provides the means to have a system that neither provides citizen's basic rights nor lets enough discomtempt build up. People without a phone are a minority, and their rights might be infringed upon without backlash. At the same time, if it all happens by phone or email, the possibility of colective action is diluded in an individualized society. Complains are the best way to see how public-facing organizations operate, and in most cases the system to protest is designed to grind your soul untill you give up, and no mesningfull change is ever enacted.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

Ask the Libertarians

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

I see federation is even bringing some good posts to the instance itself, nice to see.

To get back to the actual post though yeah I find it really irritating to no end how much I am basically obligated, especially by my school, to use certain products or services in order to be able to live my life. Yes obviously I think we should get rid of all private enterprise because capitalism sucks, but it would be nice if I were at least not forced to use specific ones, removing any ability to at least choose within the fields that are required.

One thing I think your post kind of misses though is that this isn't really an issue about the 'right to be offline'. That's certainly one aspect of it, but ultimately these same issues apply elsewhere in life as well. For example, I might find that I am obligated to buy a car or a bicycle from a private company in order to be able get to my offline appointment for a public service.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I see federation is even bringing some good posts to the instance itself, nice to see.

My workflow is to start at lemmyverse.net, do a community search (philosophy in this case), and ignore all the results ending in lemmy.world, lemmy.ml, and lemm.ee. That’s what brought me here.. having no idea what I would step into.

To get back to the actual post though yeah I find it really irritating to no end how much I am basically obligated, especially by my school, to use certain products or services in order to be able to live my life. Yes obviously I think we should get rid of all private enterprise because capitalism sucks

That might work but it’s the nuclear option. It’s like a asked “help me kill this chicken”, and ½ dozen guys show up armed to the bone and use a human-mounted helicopter machine gun like Arnie used in Predator. I have to clarify: I intended to eat the chicken, not paint the forest with it. My bad for not being more clear.

One thing I think your post kind of misses though is that this isn’t really an issue about the ‘right to be offline’. That’s certainly one aspect of it, but ultimately these same issues apply elsewhere in life as well.

There has been a right to be online movement underway, which is largely to get broadband out to rural areas. I generally agree with that movement & not leaving people behind. The problem is, the right to be online movement will likely be so successful that a “#digitalTransformation” (like Europe is pushing down people’s throats) will go as far as forcing everyone online. This is actually happening already. In Europe there are a lot of public services which were once available to everyone but now the government excludes offline people. So the right to be online must be coupled with/offset by a simultaneous right to be offline.

And to be clear, I’m not personally opposed to doing things online. But most technologists are doing a shitty job. If a Google #reCAPTCHA is put in my face, I demand an alternative path and if that means paying for a stamp, I will. I would personally cherry-pick and use the right to be offline as an escape from technology done poorly while still interacting with online services done well (however rare that is). For other folks (like elderly people), they may really want to be wholly 100% offline. I don’t, but those people are on my side nonetheless.

For example, I might find that I am obligated to buy a car or a bicycle from a private company in order to be able get to my offline appointment for a public service.

That’s really out of scope. You can draw the scope how you want but you’re basically asking for a right to live as far from a gov office as you want, and you want the gov to schlep your ass back and forth. It’s a really tenuous stretch to relate that to a right to be offline. Though a simple right to be offline would remedy your problem nonetheless. That is, if you are offline the gov could not force you to use their website, but they could satisfy offliners by offering snail-mail service and/or over-the-counter service. That’s good enough. If it’s too far to walk to the office, it’s your own problem. If you choose to live in some remote part of Alaska only reachable by a bush plane, the consequences of that decision are on you & it would be unreasonable for the gov to send a bush plane to fetch you (matters of survival aside).

this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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