this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
110 points (100.0% liked)

politics

22258 readers
153 users here now

Protests, dual power, and even electoralism.

Labour and union posts go to [email protected].

Take the dunks to /c/strugglesession or [email protected].

[email protected] is good for shitposting.

Do not post direct links to reactionary sites.

Off topic posts will be removed.

Follow the Hexbear Code of Conduct and remember we're all comrades here.

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

bugs-stalin

A good chaser for that is the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, which started during the war and ended after, so you had military + civilian experts + access to Japanese records:

The report also concluded that: "Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

here's the other one about backpack nukes as part of a US Gladio-like program

https://archive.li/8tvhv

guess they had to take it down from their site because they couldn't have too many good articles

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

Wdym that paper a few weeks back told me that foreignpolicy was a tankie website

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

My perspective has been that the reason it was done was to demonstrate an ability and willingness. The U.S. knew is was in position to dominate the world and the bomb made it clear who was the new boss, testing wasn't enough.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is correct, the bomb was primarily a threat to Russia and China. Which is why both expedited development of nuclear arms after the war. They knew that if they didn't the US would use them (almost certainly would have in Korea and Vietnam without deterrence and MAD back channels)

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago

stalin shouldn't have stopped at berlin

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is a really insane opinion. It is, however, also an incredible fact.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Its been a well-established fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were functionally just weapons test sites, conducted for the purpose of intimidating Stalin and discouraging their invasion of Hokkaido by way of Korea.

Even then, one could argue that the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden (and the saturation bombing of Korea ten years later) were significantly crueler by scale. We didn't need nuclear weapons to break the back of a country. Nor were we reluctant to wage hideous slaughter across a countryside with conventional munitions for the next 80 years.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

Dresden had weapon fabrication sites, had military command infrastructure and was part of the war of aggression. Lets not try to speak about comparisons of cruelty when the scale is so large. Though in terms of Nazi Germany plenty of Germans did support "the war effort" till it turned back on them. Also in Dresden at most 25k died, however Nazis and other reactionaries try to create a wrong perception about it for various propagandist reasons, including saying "Dresden is just like 'the use of the atomic bomb'". Victims themselves do that more seldom than reactionaries.

Bei den Luftangriffen auf Dresden vom 13. bis 15. Februar 1945 wurden bis zu 25.000 Menschen getötet.

Of course I want to have "humane wars", as victims are persons, plenty of innocent within them, but in war against Nazis and Fascist powers like that the rational to discuss is rather why did the US use the bomb? In my opinion mostly to show off and to show it to the world. "Saving lives" was something that came after as argument. The US was about as interested in saving lives in the invasion of Japan as it was in Vietnam.

Dresden also saved some innocent lives by targeting the Gestapo and military rail:

Da die Bomben auch das Zentralgebäude der Gestapo zerstörten, konnte diese die vom 14. bis 16. Februar angesetzte Deportation der letzten 198 Juden aus dem Regierungsbezirk Dresden nicht planmäßig durchführen. Etwa 40 Juden starben im Dresdner „Judenhaus“ durch Bomben, während andere trotz Nutzungsverbots in Luftschutzräumen überlebten. Sie mussten jedoch in den Folgetagen aus der Stadt fliehen, da die Gestapo weiter nach ihnen suchte. Etwa 70 Dresdner Juden entkamen so dem Holocaust.[12][36] Darunter waren Henny Brenner,[37] der später berühmte Puppenspieler Josef Skupa[38] und der Literaturwissenschaftler Victor Klemperer, der damals in sein Tagebuch schrieb:

„Wen aber von den etwa 70 Sternträgern diese Nacht verschonte, dem bedeutete sie Errettung, denn im allgemeinen Chaos konnte er der Gestapo entkommen.“[39]

Translated:

Since the bombs did destroy the headquarter of the Gestapo they couldn't deport the last of the 198 Jews living in the central government district of Dresden to extermination camps. Around 40 Jews did die in the Dresdner "Judenhaus" due to the bombs, while others survived in air raid shelters, however those had to flee in the next days as the Gestapo did actively search for them (even in the chaos of those days [Note: German civilians did support the Gestapo with those things even at that point, as they did before the attacks]). Around 70 jews managed to escape the Shoa that way. One of them was Henny Brenner, the world famous puppet master Josef Skupa and literature scientist Victor Klemperer, who wrote in his diary of those days:

For those of the 70 star carriers, exempted from death, for them this night was salvation, in the all encompassing Chaos they could escape the Gestapo.

Then dozens of bombers didn't bomb Dresden that night, instead they bombed Prague, but the crew was misnavigating.

The allies weren't masterminds. With those errors giving them that is giving them much to much credit.

The press office of Berlin's foreign office did even before the war end suggest to inflate numbers and make Dresden a central propaganda piece:

Am 7. März 1945 wies die Presseabteilung des Berliner Auswärtigen Amtes die deutsche Gesandtschaft in der neutralen Schweiz an, ab sofort in ihrer Pressearbeit zur »Zerstörung Dresdens« die Angabe »Eher 200.000 als 100.000 Todesop- fer« zu verwenden. 29 Zu diesem Zeitpunkt war bereits eine intensive und erfolgreiche Kampagne der deut- schen Auslandspropaganda im Gange, die mit dem Beispiel Dresden den »angelsächsischen Bombenkrieg« als zentrale Anklage gegen die Kriegführung der Alliierten zu positionieren suchte. Meldungen über die »unerhörten Opfer an Menschenleben« in Dresden, die vor allem über die Presse der neutralen Staaten lan- ciert worden waren, fanden rasch eine weltweite Verbreitung. 3

On 7. of March (two month before end of war in Germany) the press office told the German Emissaries in neutral Swiss from now on use the terms "Destruction/Annihilation of Dresden" and use numbers "More likely 200k than 100k dead victims" [at this point the official statistically established numbers in Dresden were betwen 22k-32k], at this point a somewhat successful campaign against the "anglo saxon bomb war" was running and a central piece in their arguments against allied warfare. News articles about "outrageous loss of human life were quickly found in press organs of neutral states and soon in international press organs, too.

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›