this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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That's not a counterpoint, that's just pointing out that both aren't good signals. The main difference is that not voting or voting third party makes it more likely that the guy you yourself admit you're more scared of more likely to win.
That's not how democracy works, like at all
Democracy is about compromise. By definition. Not about demanding exactly what you want and sabotaging the system if you don't get it. That's the opposite of democracy.
What if I don't want to compromise with fascists?
Then you get full fascism
When 40% of the voting population wants fascism those are your options.
If 40% of the voting population wants fascism your democracy is fucked and its time to re-open gulags.
“Don’t like fascism? Lock up your political enemies. Problem solved.”
The answer isn’t even voting. Voting is actually important in this scenario because, yes, you are actually voting to keep fascists from the door.
The actual answer isn’t electoralism at all—even if it’s important to avert the worst case scenario.
The answer is withholding what’s most valuable to them: your labor. General strike with a clearly defined goal and a pissed off populace is literally the most powerful tool we can harness.
Liberals will get people killed before you could organize a general strike. Quit being naive.
lol love it. Every single time without fail, people will find an excuse for why iT WoULd jUsT nEVeR wOrK HErE!
Although I will admit I haven’t heard this one before. Kudos for being original I guess?
It's called history. Look in south america lmao if you guys go left, the US will coup you. You can try. Good luck
This is such insane logic.
“People will fight against you if you stand up for yourself. What are you thinking?”
Your suggestion is…what exactly? Don’t try to fight for what’s right because it comes with a cost? I just don’t understand people.
No don't get me wrong I wish that could happen and I'd be all for it. My point is that if you're waiting for that while voting for liberals, you might wait a while. But you're right, I am being defeatist. Take care <3
You've never heard of strike breakers? Pinkertons? Battle of Blair Mountain?
I mean that's just your own ignorance at this point
“You’ve never heard of water? Why would you start a fire?”
What kind of logic is that?
And they won’t when you try to open gulags? Lmao what is your actual plan here? Or are you just a defeatist
I don't WANT to open gulags but think of the alternative.
Okay, so we agree that gulags are off the table, and you also think a general strike is off the table. I ask you again, what alternative solution are you offering?
Look I am all for direct action and passive resistance. My point is that the liberals are not going to help.
And now 40% of the population + you wants fascism
Just with different people in charge
Fascism isn't the opposite of voting. Words have meaning. Open an history book once in a while.
Ah yes, the horseshoe theory. Hitler came in power because liberals sided with him instead of the communists. Exactly like the current American democratic party would rather side with fascists than mere socialism. They proved it time and time again. Libs and fascists are too face of the same coin lol
Horseshoe theory is more like pointing out the similarities between Hitler and Stalin.
You know I kind of question that. I think democracy is more about rich people controlling the mechanisms through which everyone votes in order to sort of fool the masses into believing that whatever the oligarchs decide they want, is what they must've wanted, while simultaneously also being a good way for the rich to kind of gauge public interests through a periodic census and more easily manipulate them.
No, but I kid. Mostly. I think, democracy, more, in it's pure forms, is less maybe about compromise, and more about a kind of assumption that the majority of people are reasonable, and can be reasoned with, which I think is kind of a foundational assumption you need to make if you want any non-authoritarian form of society. Which isn't to really say that democracy can't be authoritarian, or employ authoritarian methods, because it can.
Most people don't believe we should get rid of all guns, or that we should be able to freely own machine guns, or even lots of regular guns. A functioning democracy would end up having some level of background checks, and mental health checks, and general procedures that you would have to go through (probably involving hands-on training classes and certifications), in order to own a gun. If you poll people, with a good poll, rather than a stupid binary dynamic single choice poll, you'll find that's what most people want. From what I've seen, the same is true for abortion, and I haven't seen the public sentiment on drugs, but I'd imagine most people probably would like most hard drugs to remain more illegal, or harder to access, than most "soft drugs". You can find this across most different things you'd poll people on. Healthcare, other forms of public infrastructure, including civic infrastructure, military funding, space research, every aspect of government.
This isn't to necessarily say that most people are moderates, but I think a very underrated aspect of democracy is the fact that people can choose not to vote if they feel like they're not informed enough on a concept, which will naturally select, if done correctly, for people who are more knowledgeable on a subject. Even the general public is capable of giving you a somewhat nuanced answer on many different political topics, that kind of breaks through two-party dynamics, and might even break through what are thought to be general consistent ideological positions.
None of this is to say that democracy isn't also about some level of compromise, but I think it's also up to the reasonable participants of a democracy to decide their level of compromise, what they're willing to accept and what they're not okay with. I think, you know, if your democracy was more on the side of my initial, joking answer, than on the side of all of what I've laid out, it would be kind of a shame were the whole system NOT sabotaged and taken down. In my view, at least. And, you know, providing something worse didn't sprout up in it's place.
I think it's pretty much a given that something worse would sprout up in its place.
But I do agree that an educated voting base is critical to functioning democracy. That's why I think the long term solution to our current fascism problem is education, a front we're failing miserably on
yes we made a bunch of noise about the failures of the democrats in an effort to pressure them to fucking do something. whether you think we are stupid for refusing to vote or not, you can't deny how much discourse there is and how much engagement has occurred.
Refusing to vote in the general election is actually beyond stupid. None of your arguments will have any merit, and when Trump wins, you can buy some golden shoes to commemorate sticking it to the DNC.
Counter-counter-point : democracy, as a system of government, is pointless because whether you vote, you don't vote, you protest vote, you vote tactically or you just set your ballot paper on fire it's not going to make a difference -- you still get shafted by corrupt fuckers.
"Voting is pointless because they're all corrupt fuckers" sure, tell that to the gay people who now have rights because of Democrats, or the trans people who do not have rights because of Republicans. Dumbass
This is where all the “Genocide Joe” folks’ arguments fall apart completely. It shows how incredibly misguided they are. There is literally no scenario where Trump is better than Biden.
Should I also tell that to all the people who voted Democrat and lost their right to abortion because every Democrat failed to pass a Federal abortion law in forty years because it didn't serve their own interests to do so?
Should I also tell that to all the people who voted Democrat and might lose their right to same-sex marriage because every Democrat as so far failed to pass a federal same-sex marriage law because it didn't serve their own interests to do so?
Do you want me to carry on about how corrupt the Democrats are? About how -- when it comes down to it -- they failed the people just as badly as the Republicans have?
Besides, I live in the UK and frankly don't give a shit about the clusterfuck that the American clownshow of politics is. We have our own problems.
Then why in the flying fuck are you out here giving opinions on something you don't know about and don't care about?
I agree with you in boiling it down to: Democrats have failed the people because they haven't done enough good things, while Republicans have failed the people by actively doing terrible things.
So my conclusion is that yes, both parties have done terrible things, and I agree that Democrats haven't gone far enough on most issues I care about, but the GOP is actively going against the things I care about.
It's an easy decision at the ballot box, and it is an easy decision for me to do more than simply vote. Voting is the lowest bar for participation in a democracy.
Democracy requires participation to be legitimized by the people.
But sure, don't vote and have the fascists take away those annoying voting rights. Like an idiot.