this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2023
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Man, the replies are shilled as hell. There's a war of aggresion in Europe, and nobody can afford to be a bystander. We have paid bitterly for inaction against dictators in the past, and we must not let history repeat itself. No amount of fake handwringing or nuclear sabre rattling will change the fact that Ukraine is a free and sovereign nation, and that Russia has no right to have any territorial pretensions towards it. As for the paid trolls and contrarians - history will not remember you kindly.
The less we push against Russia now the more aggressive it will become in the future. Playing nice has led the world to a global crisis and Ukraine to a bloodshed filled with war crimes.
Russia's government is evil and there's no middle ground between good and evil that isn't evil.
There's this certain line of argument that says that the best thing to do for peace is to let Ukraine fall, or at least force them to cede occupied territory. That thinking is so ignorant of history. When a country gets expansionist and the response is timid, it just means that they're going to continue later.
May save some Ukrainians in the short term but they will just become front line meatshields in Russia's next war if not worse (e.g. imprisoned under false pretences and / or enslaved).
Ukraine knows this so they're essentially a cornered animal fighting its predator. Russia is taking a huge gamble and losing.
I can't believe how many tankies I had to scroll past to find a sane comment.
I'm very wary of Lemmy because of this. There's so much pro Russia / China going on here. Users who spam post propaganda that go unbanned.
It's not necessarily bad to have your views challenged now and again. It not only forces you to defend your own assumptions. If you look closely at someone who is in an echo chamber, you can start to identify areas where you are hobbled by being in an echo chamber.
Neither of these governments deserve a voice in Western society. Neither of them allow a Western voice in their society.
Wasn't it the West who always claimed to be more democratic and open? Now the evil governments don't "deserve a voice in Western society"?
"Yes, please censor the media and don't report truthfully on anything the non-Western govs do to ensure we remain free!"
lol
Yes, democratic and open to those with similar ideals. Go take your fascist ass back to your shithole.
"If you're not open to our evil ideals then you're not really open." What a weak argument lmao. Are you people even trying at this point?
It's bizarre how people instinctively seem to get foam around their mouths once you disagree with their assesment of this war and the Western simulation of liberal democracy. I'm an anarchist and antifascist. At least get your terminology in order before you recklessly give in to your lower instincts of insulting people without having any idea what you're talking about. Appreciated.
Not buying the Western "Ukraine doesn't have Nazis, this not a US-led proxy war, Maidan was a peaceful color-revolution" narrative doesn't make you pro-Russian. I'm neither a friend of Putin nor the Russian or Chinese empire. I just want to see US imperialist hegemony come to an end.
Absolutely rabid here mate.
The things you do is Russia / China tactics 101. Try to cast shade into what exactly you support while very clearly being against one side. I have said plenty of bad things about my own country here and in other places. And likewise about China, Russia and many others. Criticism is thankfully a freedom we still have here. How about you, wanna tell us a few things about China and Russia motherland?
I'm from Europe and I have no allegiance to China or Russia. I'm anti-imperialist and the only political label I can associate with that of anarchism. But yeah, sure, go on making me out to be some imperialist communist tankie fascist or whatever people throw around nowadays to discredit people they don't agree with without even knowing the political affiliations/leanings of someone.
Please explain "Russia / China tactics 101" and I'll take the time to counter what you consider to be (I'm paraphrasing) "imperialist aligned tactics" and that I have good reasons to have arrived at my conclusions (which you don't know about, even you read of all of my comments, because I haven't stated them anywhere in full detail, but please, give it a try, if you don't have anything better to do). I'm also open to being wrong and I tend to change my mind when presented with good data/evidence.
Since your posts in this thread are so utterly bereft of nuance ("Russia is evil!!11", "Censor what contradict's Western doctrine", "You have a dissenting opinion so I'll assume you're a fascist"), I'm really not sure why I even bother responding to you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, hoping that you might be willing to engage in a meaningful debate.
The tankies are in your walls.
The troll farms are very happy with the fediverse movement. It's much much easier to exploit and deceive compared to big regulated tech companies. The neckbeards behind Lemmy are also typical 'marketplace of ideas' naïve idiots, making it that much easier for groups to spread their misinformation unopposed.
Even so it's a net positive. The world just needs to get better at critical thinking. Hell, I had to take a whole class on it in college. I personally think it should be a high school class.
Has there been any proof from any Fediverse admin who could confirm that troll farms are active on Lemmy/Fediverse? I'd be interested to read more about that. Thanks!
Edit: Would've expected that it's too small in comparision to the big players.
It's not surprising-- this community's hosted on an instance run by known tankies, no wonder all the comments sections here are so toxic.
Which community? The post is from a user at fmhy.ml, you're on kbin.social, and I'm reading it on lemmy.ml.
So by your logic the US should directly commit troops and provoke a declaration of war from Russia? You do realize that would bring all of NATO (nuclear powerful) into a hot war with Russia (also nuclear powerful) over a few regions they can't seem to hold in Ukraine?
Sorry, that's crazy.
You're right, Ukraine is a sovereign nation. They have every right to defend themselves and I am in no way defending Russia's invasion. That being said, other sovereign nations should not be expected to put their people's lives on the line so Ukraine can win in their conflict with Russia.
Everyone seems so concerned with the appeasement aspect of trying to contain Hitler in WW2 they forget the lessons of WW1 bringing the world into a pointless bloody and destructive war through alliances after the assassination of an archduke.
Not to mention the situation today is vastly different than the eve of WW2. Literally the only similarity is a territorial conflict which is true of the majority of the worlds conflicts. Let's compare
While Germany was invading the sudatenland, Chamberlain persued a policy of appeasement, trying to befriend Hitler. During Russia's invasion of Ukraine there was almost universal opposition with countries lending indirect aid to Ukraine instead of just standing by.
Part of German expansion was the systematic stripping and denial of personhood and rights to anyone deemed undesirable creating a crisis where refugees could not leave without proper papers they could never get. Compared with today where Ukrainian refugees get to use the fast pass lane to enter the US through Mexico.
Most importantly, Germany never developed the nuke. They tried, but didn't get there before the end of the war. There was zero nuclear consideration to worry about. Compared to Russia today which is a nuclear powerhouse on par with the US.
History will only remember if we don't nuke ourselves out of existence because of this. Too many people alive today don't know the fear of mutually assured destruction. Never thought that old cold war vestage actually served a useful purpose in the minds of the people.
We have paid, and are paying, for inaction against this particular dictator. Wars of expansion like this have to be met with defense from the entire global community. We tried appeasement, and they showed us that appeasement will be treated as weakness and a sign to continue expansion.
A free and sovereign nation owned by Blackrock.