this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2023
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yeah and in plenty of those societies religion WAS the hierarchy. how could we ever even eliminated class society while also preserving organizations and ideologies to which hierarchy is inherent.
I think any reasonable communist thinks that religious theocracies are terrible. You can have religion in any type of society, but not have it be the dominating factor of the society.
it is not the dominating factor in most capitalists societies right now and its terrible enough as is.
You might be right. My perspective on the matter is that we should take that anti-religion energy and focus it on class struggle instead. Once we, the proletariat, control the state, we can suppress the power that religion holds over society.
In "The Principles of Communism" Engles writes:
The mirrors my perspective above in that if we focus on class struggle in order to bring about communism, religion will take a new form in either shifting to focus on simply the "spirituality" aspect or disappear entirely.
using that quote to defend religion is like defending the state by quoting the "Paris Commune" if that supports any view its mine.
My intention is not to "defend religion" as you say. I'm simply stating that I think attacking religion is counter productive or at the very least, will not accomplish anything. I have no love for religion myself, but it's important to remember that many of our comrades do. Hakim is a good example and a much more developed Marxist than myself and many others on this platform.
Does o_d defend religion? That's not quite how I interpreted what they said.
Yes they do, quoting for example "we should take that anti-religion energy and focus it on class struggle instead. Once we, the proletariat, control the state, we can suppress the power that religion holds over society."
It's basically class reductionism and also opposing at least the reactionary religious institutions is a part of class struggle anyway, not to mention opposing the usual religious rhetorics of class solidarity. And both will be framed as opposing religion anyway, so we don't really have to hide marxist materialism.
Of course, in the context of thread, Quran burning is definitely not any of this, just a useless juvenile demonstation and provocation (which also more often than not comes from the fanatic christian circles).
I'm reminded of the church's betrayal of the Irish revolutionaries, when it realised that siding with the Brits would maintain more of its landholdings.
A few years early James Connolly wrote about the revolutionary zeal in the working class Catholics, in 'Catholicism, Protestantism & Politics' (1913):
Edit: fixed link
First thing anyone should know about catholic church is how incredibly opportunistic that institution is, it will always manage the line of least friction to its power and priviledges. There is one notable exception though, marxism. It's always against marxist states because it's philosophically, theoretically and practically opposed to marxism, even if in rare circumstances it's forced to coexist. For example Cuba - diamonds against nuts that if Cuban socialism got destroyed it will turn into mirror of polish one, all with putting a mask of "defender of the people" and people getting smashed by capitalism would buy that shit, defusing revolutionary movement, exactly as happened in all postsocialist countries (with orthodox church where applicable because it's not a big difference, same modus operandi).
Did religion provide the hierarchy or the relations of production? I imagine there's quite a strong dialectical relationship as I see religion as adaptable to material conditions. E.g. Catholicism mapped perfectly to feudal society. Then Christians needed a new form for the capitalist era. And in comes Protestantism with is work ethic and whatever the fuck those fundamentalists in the US do where the Christians screech for war, refuse to help the poor, and deny medical care to each other.
I'm not saying this to say that religion can survive without hierarchy. Maybe there are theories about that. Only to ask whether there's an order to this. If religion provides the hierarchy does that make it part of the base? And if religion no longer provides the hierarchy, would it now be part of the superstructure? Or was it always part of the superstructure? (Recognising, still, that the base-superstructure is shorthand for something that is more flexible in practice than in some vulgar theory.)