this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
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This is pretty fluffy, and I guess that's nice, but religion is actually harmful. And as much as religion and science may both satisfy a similar desire to belong to something greater, I think it is dangerously misleading to suggest that the two are equivalent - even in this limited context.
This is incredibly divisive, you're right, but ... you might be due to rewatch the film if you think there aren't foundational problems long before we get to sectarianism.
Do we?
You might have misunderstood me... I'm saying religion as an institution is harmful. I think we agree on that.
I'm not trying to say that religion is equivalent to science. I'm saying the believer of God and the believer of science are both drawing from the same place in their respective phyches. Its where we build our idea of what the world is, and our place in it.
What Wanda sees as a tornado sent by God, Debbie sees as the result of observable weather patterns. You can worry about who's right, or you can realize that they are both right from their own respective world views.
How is it divisive to say "people who's belief system specifically invalidates the beliefs of others kinda suck?" That idea is divisive by design, which is where we have the problem in religion.
The "same shit" I was referring to was the core need for belief. The comment was a plea for understanding, not a literal statement of fact...
Religion as a concept isn't harmful. It's a completely natural pairing of our need for spirituality and need for community. But it's as suceptiple to manipulation just as any other system in society. It takes a human willing to exploit it to make it harmful.
Tornadoes are not sent by god, and no amount of belief makes it "right". Even worse, it becomes harmful when people think a tornado is divine punishment against things that offend their faith.
So no, science and faith are not the same.
I'm not saying religion is right. I'm trying to say we're all wrong. Nobody is right, and when no one's right, everyone's right.
We have the scientific method now, which is great. It's still just a framework we use to understand the physical world around us. Just as religion is a framework to understand the spiritual world around us.
Based on the sub, I assume you're an atheist and believe in the scientific method. (correct me if I'm wrong) Assuming that's the case, I would imagine that you understand that even our most rigorously tested facts would become fiction the moment someone was able to prove them wrong.
If you lived and died before we found out the world was round... In the reality you occupied, the world was flat. It does not matter what the "real" reality of the situation was. You lived and died with that fact contributing to your world view.
You and I have more than a few facts in our heads right now that will one day be fiction.
If you're still reading...
From you and the other guy's reply I get the sense that your issue is with people. People who abuse faith to try to get the world to match their view instead of the other way around.
The only sources of good or evil in this world come from intelligent life. We invented it as far as we know. Everything else is just part of the machinery of the universe existing without moral motivation.
I specifically wrote "you're right" so you wouldn't do this.
So you offered an empty gesture that contradicted almost everything else you said as a means to end a conversation (that you voluntarily entered) before it started?
Cool. Cool cool cool.
Good talk.
No. I wanted to make sure you understood that when I said it was "incredibly divisive", I was agreeing and reinforcing your point, "people believing that they are the 'true' believers..."; I was NOT arguing that you expressing this was divisive.
As for my participation here, we are both free to enter or exit conversations as we please, but since you called me out, I will clarify: I am not responding to the rest of what you wrote because you are alternating so quickly between nonsense and ostensible lucidity that I don't even know where to begin. Also, you're kind of being an idiot.
I see the misunderstanding now. I apologize for being defensive.
This conversation didn't go the way I wanted it to, but at least I learned something.
The last thing I'll say... I think what you see as flip flopping is just me trying to convey the idea that if there is one underlying truth to the universe, no one knows it. We all live in reality bubbles of our own making, philosophically speaking. I think understanding that concept is a crucial component in thinking of ideas that are bigger than ourselves.
Thank you. That makes sense, and I agree.
Epistemology is one of my favourite topics - I suspect if we had the conversation again without religion, everything would go smoothly. :)
"Epistemology" - Learned two things, lol
Just curious so I can understand your position a bit better. Leaving religion out, do you think Spirituality has a place in epistemology?
Given the lack of empirical evidence for spiritual claims, it's tough to judge or verify them using the standard tools of knowledge, if at all. Spirituality, whatever it may be, is inherently personal and subjective, and this subjectivity makes it impossible to set up a consistent and objective framework in epistemology. Also, I'd worry that spirituality mingled with epistemology could undermine the strict scientific rigour that's so critical to knowledge gathering.
Gotcha. Thanks for the perspective =)