this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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What matters isn't who came first. What matters is that no one has the right to expel a human from a land they're living in. That is the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
I am pro Palestine, but have no issue with the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century. The problem is not Jewish migration. It is the fact that Israel expelled Palestinians from their homes, murdered them, suffocated them, and made their lives miserable.
And this is the same thing that was done to the native people of the modern day Americas.
This is an honest question, is Wikipedia just wrong on that? Because there they write that Palestine also expelled all Jews and that they moved to Israel for that reason (because they weren't allowed in Palestine). And also they write that Hamas specifically want all Jews to be gone.
If Wikipedia is wrong, where do you get your information from?
Please feel free to ask any questions! I am happy to answer them all
Can you please cite which part of Wikipedia is saying this?
"Palestine" and "Israel" are two names for the same region, so it doesn't make sense to be expelled from one into the other. I think there must be a misunderstanding here.
I bet this is referring to certain Arab States expelling Jews during the creation of Israel and the British occupation of Palestine, as a retaliation (which was horrible and stupid and I fully condemn it). But keep in mind this is well into the conflict, when Zionists and British occupation were already well into committing heinous acts and massacres, and that this is Arab States who sympathized with Palestine, not Palestine itself.
What I was referring to was treatment of Jews in Palestine before the Zionist project.
As for Hamas' anti-semitism, I think some background information is important here.
When it was founded, Hamas was not a popular group by any means. Popular Palestinian resistance groups at the time were socialist and progressive, such as the PFLP and other members of the PLO. Hamas was founded as a Muslim brotherhood affiliate, and its charter had many anti Semitic references.
Israel saw this as a huge opportunity, and it propped up Hamas while fighting off other groups. Fast forward to the 2000's, every Palestinian resistance group was left defeated, and Hamas was left as the only group left fighting. Palestinians had no choice but to support Hamas.
This was a major change for Hamas. It saw hoardes of Palestinians join its ranks, and most were not ideologically aligned with them. There are even Christians fighting among its ranks. This caused an ideological shift within Hamas. It was even reflected in its new charter in 2017, which dropped anti-semitic rhetoric and said it is fighting against Israel, not because of its religion, but because of the Zionist occupation. You can find this charter translated online easily.
Since then, many Hamas officials reiterated their position that they are not fighting to expel Jews, but against Zionist occupation.
Palestinians today see Hamas as a vehicle for their liberation, and not as an ideological alignment. But even then, most of the people in Hamas do not hold anti Semitic opinions anymore, and we should keep in mind this major shift throughout its history.
Wikipedia is kind of wrong in the sense that there's always been Palestinian Jews.
The issue is that due to Zionism, a ton of European Jews moved into the region starting at the turn of the last century and accelerating following the Holocaust.
Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence on what can only be thought of as religious grounds.
All of which can only be taken as an indication of how deeply corrupting and counter-progressive are virtually all forms of institutionalized organized religion.
Fuck all of them. Organized religion sucks ass and should rightly be seen as a vestige of the past.
I am pretty sure that they were concerned about being expelled from their homes and massacred, and not because they hated "thriving industrialized democracy".
What country are you in?
The US has a large Jewish population by number.
Didn't Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start? The international community proposed a solution and they refused to accept it.
Certainly if they chose to fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
That's hardy unprecedented, the very city I live in was largely founded by seizing lands from the British during the American war of independence, because they lost...
I would say while yes it's "wrong" to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise when you have a complex ethnic and religious issue. Otherwise conflict is inevitable.
None of which is to excuse any war crimes committed by either side. I just think it's more nuanced than "israel bad apartheid state".
"coexist with a Jewish state" is a bit of a contradictory statement. Arabs coexisted with Jews fine prior to the Zionist project. A Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That's the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.
Resist*. they chose to resist occupation, expulsion from their homes, massacre and genocide.
Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they've earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.
"hey man, I know I just took over your home and burned your family alive in front of your eyes. But you gotta be reasonable here and be willing to compromise!"
What more of a compromise do you need beyond coexistence? That's all Palestinians have asked for, and Israel continues to deny them basic rights, no matter how peaceful they are.
And I end with: Israel bad apartheid state. It is truly that simple.
Nice try putting words in my mouth, but I never said any of this was "OK". It doesn't have my "blessing", I merely gave my observation grounded in reality, of how the world works. Hell no, if it was up to me, everything everywhere would be resolved peacefully, fairly and with diplomacy, not violence.
Honestly given your tone and snide remarks, I suspect you are too emotionally invested on this topic, for whatever reason, to have a rational discussion.
But either way, the ability to occupy and defend land will remain the determining factor in maintaining sovereignty, now and in the future. You can't count on the international community, and you can't count on what's right or just. ( call me a pessimist, I'll agree :)
But there are Arabs even in military right now so you are wrong, learn first then judge.
Wrong about what exactly? What does having Arabs in the military prove (or disprove)?
How does the presence of Arabs in Israel's war machine disprove that? You didn't answer this question.
There were Jews who fought in the Nazis ranks. Based on your ridiculous logic, the Nazis are inclusive of the Jews (obviously incorrect because your logic is flawed).
There were black people fighting in the US armies as well, even during Jim Crow era.
Source? Highly doubt
Treated as second class citizens, stripped of their rights, and brutalized daily
Source? Highly doubt
Also, calling Muslims or another group "Monkeys" is not allowed in this community. I am warning you. Next time will be a ban.
I have. Nothing strikes me as a fraction of the concern that Israeli statements are.
After Israel has been bombarding them, burning them alive, and cutting off essential resources for decades? Man, I wonder why they're suffering.
When I fuck my wife I always come first! And that's exactly what I tell her.