horsesaysweird comments on Generations

[–] horsesaysweird@feddit.org 7 points 11 hours ago (5 children)

I don't think you would have much impact. Even if we assume you are extremely good at learning new (i.e. old) languages, extremely popular (everything you suggest is done), and you have a rich benefactor who houses and feeds you, you are still lacking the giant supply chain stack that is absolutely required to get anything done in the modern world.

The only thing I could maybe get done is making some extremely bad and extremely expensive soap. Concrete or metals would be so far out of reach, I might as well work on a perpetual motion machine or try to transform lead to gold. Just go into the woods and try to mine some iron and you see what I mean.

The average modern person knows probably less about agriculture and building houses than the average person 12k years ago, and those are pretty intuitive.

The wheel isn't some complex contraption that needs to be improved over generations. It's probably the most simple tool imaginable, but it's also useless unless you have roads.

I'm always amazed how modern people have no idea how useless they would be just a few hundred years ago.

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[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 6 points 7 hours ago (4 children)

The guy on the primitive technology channel smelled iron from orange bacteria. He used 3 different methods with his most complex tools being stone and clay. Copper and tin are generally easier, and are exposed on the surface in many areas. The only thing stopping people from figuring out bronze earlier was location and luck. I think the bronze age starting 7000 years earlier would have had an impact.

I know how to make black powder, and generally know how to source it. Between that and bronze, you could have guns over 11000 years earlier than we did.

I've built houses.

I know the basics of making paper. Even if I didn't, clay tablets are easy. Writing 4000 years earlier would necessarily advance knowledge if nothing else happened. Throw in some math and the concept of zero and you could advance knowledge in those areas by thousands of years. Math isn't relevant? Some of the oldest structures we have around use math and astronomy. Imagine if we had those 5000 years earlier.

One of the bigger reasons people don't learn more languages is because they don't have the time or interest. One of the best ways to learn is immersion. Being in a situation where you have to learn a new language if you want to communicate with anyone else would certainly be a motivator to put in the effort.

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[–] horsesaysweird@feddit.org 2 points 5 hours ago (3 children)

The iron from Primitive Technology is maybe enough for a small piece of jewelry like a ring, and that's from many runs of very time consuming and labor intensive smelting. I'm not a metallurgist, but it also looks pretty bad. Even if it was modern tool steel with no impurities, 20g of iron pellets is pretty useless if you don't have a forge.

Your knowledge and skills are impressive, but I very much doubt that's common, and you most likely use modern tools to build houses. I'd be surprised if you could build better houses with sticks and stones than the stone age people who have been doing it for generations.

I've seen videos of people who make paper traditionally, and I remember that knowing the basics of it is about as useful as knowing the basics of making a rocket. Unless you have actually made paper and gun powder from scratch without any modern tools, I will not believe that you could do it.

I have to agree with you regarding writing and math. Also social sciences like philosophy, ethics, psychology, education, etc. Any tool you can use with only your brain would be be very helpful.

But I think the biggest issue would be convincing people to try new things. For all I know, photovoltaik could be a gift from a time traveller, but there was (and is) much opposition to it because many people are so conservative. If you started explaining electricity to people in the stone age, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd be banned or worse.

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[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 1 point 4 hours ago (2 children)

That's why I said tin and copper are easier. There were locations with native copper deposits, much like finding gold in streams. Copper is easier to work, tin is pretty easy relatively speaking, and the two give you bronze, which allows proper tools. That's part of why it took about 2000 years after bronze before we had iron. The guy from Primitive Technology is working from a very poor ore source (and is actually doing trial and error). That said, I doubt you could get much more than the idea of iron accepted by a Neolithic culture in a lifetime.

Sure, I've built houses using modern tools, but I'm also aware of the techniques used in older wood buildings. I could be an adequate apprentice for the first house I built, and could build a second on my own.

I didn't say gun powder, I said black powder. It's far simpler and safer. I made some before I was a teenager. The hardest part is finding saltwater and the only tool you need is a mortar and pestle. If they didn't exist by 10000 BC, then I could "invent" that, too.

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[–] horsesaysweird@feddit.org 1 point 1 hour ago (1 child)

How easy is it to find a copper deposit? What do they look like? How much should one expect to find? What would you do if you found a significant amount?

I'm sure they had adequate house building apprentices back then. We're talking about uplifting stone age people, not fitting in.

Wikipedia says gunpower and black powder are the same thing, wut whatever. How do you make it? I knew you need saltpeter, but I wouldn't have a clue how to find that, and even if I found some by chance, I wouldn't even know what it looks like. And even if I did, I wouldn't know what to do with it. I know almost nothing about black powder, but I feel like I know more the average person.

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[–] GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca 1 point 21 minutes ago

Native copper deposits would be green copper seams in exposed rock faces or red or green nuggets in streams or on the ground. I'm sure it wasn't easy, but it's how we historically started using copper. Having charcoal and learning how to produce a reducing fire or other methods of reduction allows you to smelt basic ores. After that, real chemistry kicks in.

The first step in changing a society is surviving. The second step is fitting in. The easiest way to do that without animosity is getting a job, and manual labor was a big thing 12000 years ago. No matter how good a carpenter you are, hauling around giant wooden beams isn't a one-man job. Likewise for hauling stones or bricks. Having done plenty of manual labor in my day, having someone who is eager to work and eager to learn usually makes it easier as an employer.

Gun powder can refer to black powder or smokeless powder (as well as some less common versions that were used for cannons and such). Black powder starts relatively easily, and is still reasonably stable. Good for flintlocks, but makes a mess of your barrel, so it requires more cleaning. The production of serpentine is basically grinding separate elements and stirring/grinding in the right ratios. It's very hard to ignite while making, unless you're reckless, but gets old relatively quickly. Corning will make grains of black powder, but the better methods can be quite risky. I don't imagine there were many amateur gun powder corn-makers. The process itself can ignite the powder if not done correctly.

Nitrate crystals will form in manure, bat guano, or urine. You would have to compete with the farmers for manure and the tanners for the urine, but if you have crystals you're close to the right thing.

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