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[–] 27 points 1 day ago* (11 children)

indentured servitude isn't freedom but it is obscene to pretend it was the same as chattel slavery and completely disregard all the racial contributions in a historical context

edit: I'm not trying to defend or minimize indenture but I think this comment, like the original, just serves to launder racism

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  • [–] 4 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

    Irish serfdom under the English squirearchy was unfree, coerced and explotative. People fled that by selling themselves.
    I don't think we need to minimise that. It wssnt chattel slavery, people were not directly bought as commodities, they were not packed like tetris blocks on slave ships. Serfdom is still a form of slavery, as is indentured servitude.

    Edit: It isn't laundering racism to point out that things that arent chattel slavery can still be slavery. It is absolutely some kind of racism adjacent conspiracy to invent a theory of Jewish domination of an Irish slave trade. But pointing out that serfdom is unfree isnt the same thing.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

    For sure, it's only that chattel slavery is not the only kind of slavery. Limiting the definition of slavery to such a narrow image would reject a lot of very real slavery. The Ottomans didn't keep chattel slaves but they were certainly slavers.

    OOP was definitely laundering racism though 100%

    Edit: I think it is seriously worth noting that Bacon's rebellion was specifically an alliance of white indentured servents and african slaves against the slave owning class. Just don't pay attention to the colonial anti-indigenous motivations for that revolt though.

    Edit 2: maybe not on that last bit

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  • [–] 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    I think it is seriously worth noting that Bacon’s rebellion was specifically an alliance of white indentured servents and african slaves against the slave owning class. Just don’t pay attention to the colonial anti-indigenous motivations for that revolt though.

    No it was not, not in the slightest. Bacon represented the more fascistic of the two settler factions. His rebellion's entire point was to steal more from the indiginous to alleviate the economic downturn and he had full support of the white masses seeing their salvation in the looting that was to come.

    And Bacon only conscripted the Afrikan slaves to the rebellion at the very end in a last ditch effort when he got deserted by his supporters after both sides bribed each other's indentured servants for the same reason.

    I really recommend Settlers, chapter 2, in which Sakai recounts all the events from start to finish. Here's part of the conclusion:

    Out of the debris of this chaotic dispute we can pick out the central facts. First, that there was no democratic political program or movement whatsoever. Bacon’s Rebellion was a popular movement, representing a clear majority of the settlers, to resolve serious economic and social problems by stepping up the exploitation of oppressed peoples. Far from being “democratic,” it was more nearly fascistic. Bacon was the diseased mind of the most reactionary faction of the planters, and in his ambitious schemes the fact that a few more freemen or ex-slaves had paper voting rights meant little. Far from fighting to abolish slavery, the Rebellion actually hoped to add to the number of slaves by Indian conquest. And, finally, there was no “Black and White unity” at all. Needing fighting bodies, Bacon at the very end offered a deal to his opponents’ slaves. He paid in the only coin that was meaningful — a promise of freedom for them if he won. Those Afrikans who signed up in his army didn’t love him, trust him, view him as their leader, or anything of the kind. They were tactically exploiting a contradiction in the oppressor ranks, maneuvering for their freedom. It is interesting to note that those Indianswho did give themselves up to unity with the oppressors, becoming the settlers’ lackeys and allies, were not protected by it, but were destroyed.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago* (1 child)

    Thats really interesting for how severely differently it was presented in another explicitly leftist book I read. I was aware that it was strongly motivated by the genocidal interests of settlers but it was presented to me as effecticely a coalition between poor frontiersmen, indentured servents, and eventually slaves against wealthier colonials who refused to use state power to protect settlers. This movement was then coopted by Bacon but not began by him. The story as I understood it went something like this. In the beginning it was the frontiersmen (in some case legally landless), indentured servents, and slave aligned by their class interests as settlers threatened by indigenous resistance rebelling on their own for the purpose of not dying. Bacon, a wealthier colonial, comes in and says yeah fuck the natives I got your back and gives structure to the preexisting political unrests but is then successfully repressed by the colonial hierarchy led by Berkeley. Leading to stronger racial distinctions and decreased use of white indentured servitude as to avoid another such coalition forming across racial lines.

    I'd have to look into it more but I don't think this is an entirely unfair interpretation. I'd have to look more into African participation especially as I had never heard they were only part of it very late into the rebellion. Scholarship may have changed since 1983.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

    Adding to this, indentured servants still had some rights (though these were often disregarded as the people who violated those rights were often the ones who would enforce them). Examples:

    • Indentured servants were allowed to read. Slaves were not. Teaching black slaves how to read itself was a crime punishable by imprisonment and/or lashings.
    • Indentured servants were still allowed to own property. They often sold as much as they could, however, to pay off their debt. Slaves owned nothing. Even their clothes were property of the master. Slaves were not allowed to buy or sell things for themselves.
    • If you killed or seriously harmed an indentured servant, you could be charged with a crime. Some contracts had limits as to what types of punishments could be dealt to the indentured. Slaves could be murdered,removedd, and tortured with impunity.

    Having an impossible sum of money held over you with your wages garnished under the threat of imprisonment or abuse was awful. But it still isn't as bad as some Epstein frat boys deciding they're going to use you for skeet shooting. Or sending your children to another plantation in another state where you will never see them again.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 day ago

    That and they also try to pin it on Jews when it was Irish people taking whatever deal they could get to get out of then totally occupied Ireland. It wasn't Jews it was anyone with a ship that would take you to the "new world" with the fewest questions asked.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (3 children)

    This is what I think every time someone uses "wage slave." It's a term to retire.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    "Experience demonstrates that there may be a wages of slavery only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other." -Frederick Douglas

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    It may have made more sense in his time -- when grievous injuries and deaths were common in the workplace, when striking workers had a real risk of getting shot, and when hours and pay kept many close to bare subsistence -- but it largely doesn't now, at least in the U.S. Tell someone you're a wage slave in the U.S. and unless they already agree with you they're going to think it's an obscene comparison. Now you have two problems: they still don't agree with you, and you have to argue the comparison before you even get to your larger point.

    It's not hard to describe how exploitative capitalism is. We don't need to exaggerate for effect, and doing so just gives people an easy out if they want to write you off.

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