I was originally going to ask how many legal genders there should be, but I fail to see a compelling argument against 0.

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[–] 48 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (30 children)

Because there are many laws that grant some benefits to one gender but no the other. For example:

  • In Poland women get to retire earlier
  • In many countries there's mandatory conscription only for men
  • In many countries maternal and paternal leaves are different
  • Physical requirements for some jobs (police, firemen) are lower for women
  • There are legally mandated proportions of genders in companies or in political parties (in parliamentary clubs to be exact)
  • In Spain there are laws that specifically protect women from violence committed by men and special courts that handle them
  • Many other laws/rules that require some % of public grants to go to women

You can remove all those laws but that will make feminists unhappy. Most of those benefits are backed by women and passed by leftists governments. As long as those laws exists you need legal genders.

Reading the comments I'm surprised how many people don't know about them.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 hours ago

    Yes, it turns out if you want to use the mechanisms of the legal system to try to counter the marginalization of any group by the whole system, it has to recognize them in law and provide a method for distinguishing them in practice.

    But, once you have some method of distinguishing them, the people that want to strengthen hierarchical structures will use that to identify them and (further) marginalize them.

    This is true whether you are talking about chromosomal properties, internal anatomy, external anatomy (not limited to genital shape, but also melanin quantity and distribution), gender-assigned-at-birth, current gendered behavior, religious practices or associations, etc.

    Still legal recognition might be the best way to reduce harm until we can achieve a future where the category or distinguishing characteristics no longer make one a target of (extra-judicial) marginalization.

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  • [–] 13 points 15 hours ago (9 children)

    I do think men getting conscripted because they’re men in kinda bullshit.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 hours ago

    There's a funny story here in the US about that. We were trying to pass the Equal Rights Act (ERA) - equal pay for equal work, and some Republican tried to tank it by putting in the bill that women would also be subject to the draft - apparently he figured that was so horrifying it would sink it. Supporters just said "yeah, that seems fair, good idea" and he had to scramble to take that wording out because he had so misjudged the situation. Still managed to sink the bill though:(

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  • [–] 12 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

    Conscription is bullshit. If your war is so unpopular to your people that they aren’t volunteering, then you shouldn’t be at war.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 hours ago (4 children)

    That one isn't a feminist law, that's a fascist one, under the fasc ideal "women are too weak to fight!"

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  • [–] 10 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

    Reading the comments I’m surprised how many people don’t know about them.

    It might be less about not knowing about gender disparity, and more about wanting to get rid of that too.

    • global retirement age is bullshit anyway; tell me that someone that worked 50 years in a coal mine (and survived somehow) should retire at the same age that someone that worked in an office. Gender is not needed there
    • mandatory conscription is already a dicy subject; if one assume it makes sense, making it men-only doesn't. No need for gender disparity here either; plenty of military roles that can be done without being a beefcake
    • many countries are actually looking into extending paternal leaves because they finally got that both parents are important to raise a child
    • physical requirements should be physical requirements. If they exist, they should match the job requirements. Having different bar of entry because of gender makes no sense. If the job is lifting iron all day, and you can lift iron all day, that's all that matters.
    • parity requirements related to gender exists to curb all the disparity that's ingrained in society because we decided to make men and women a different thing. remove the difference, remove the need to "make amend with a mandatory quota"
    • same as previous point
    • and same as previous previous point

    The only need to keep distinguishing gender for legal stuff is because we keep the "women are lesser than men" mentality, coupled with "women needs protection".

    Guess what: there isn't a gender that is "less" than the other, and everyone needs protection. Sounds like an equality thing to me, where genders only get in the way.

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  • [–] 5 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

    remove the difference, remove the need to "make amend with a mandatory quota"

    Have you seen what's going on in the US lately? Abolishing DEI programs that recognize race or gender helps whoever has the most institutional power. White men have run the world for their own benefit for centuries. You think taking them off the leash now will result in a gender-neutral equitable utopia?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 hours ago

    What's happening in the US is not the removal of DEI laws and programs. Well, that, too. But it's the explicit removal of people that were covered by these program, regardless of skills.

    And, it only highlights why the legal gender distinction is a problem. If there were no state-level "what gender are you" line attached to people, you could not mandate the removal of women, legally or not.

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  • [–] 2 points 13 hours ago

    It's one of those funny cases were far left and far right go full circle and collide on the other side. Like with opening stores on Sunday which the left and right both oppose or support depending on the country. Here we see people attack gender violence laws from the left but in Spain it's the far right Vox party that is against them.

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  • [–] 13 points 17 hours ago (6 children)

    I think gender mixed prisons might be considered problematic as well.

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  • [–] 4 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

    Is that the problem or is the problem that prisons are largely badly designed in the first place?

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  • [–] 0 points 17 hours ago* (2 children)

    This is a very interesting topic but it's too complex to discuss on lemmy. Most people would not be able to understand the legal nuances and would just start lashing out. I will just leave this here for those interested.

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  • [–] 3 points 16 hours ago

    For anybody wondering, it's about a male criminal that is allegedly not transsexual but claims so to be held in a female one prison.

    Interestingly there is a similar case here in Sweden.

    I too abstain from posting any judgement in a complex issue that goes beyond quick opinions based on headlines.

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  • [–] 6 points 16 hours ago (4 children)

    You act like there's no option to create GENDER EQUALITY, and instead the only option is to remove those laws.

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  • [–] 4 points 14 hours ago (1 child)

    I'm curious how you create GENDER EQUALITY without forcing people to acknowledge and correct for systemic biases. It's not like there was GENDER EQUALITY before such laws existed.

    The idea of affirmative action laws is that, systemically, white men in western countries were born on third base thinking they hit a triple, and everyone else needs some amount of help to catch up to their institutional and generational wealth and power. A law can't correct for that difference if the difference is no longer recognized, and that means white men get to retain their position.

    It's why the Trump administration focused so hard on dismantling DEI efforts. Their position is that we've achieved equality and these programs are an unjust bias. Obviously bullshit, but it's what you immediately end up with if race and gender are not legally recognized characteristics.

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  • [–] 6 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 child)

    Do I? I said that as long as those laws exist legal gender also has to exist. I didn't say that those laws should or shouldn't be removed.

    Most of those laws are passed by leftists governments and many were passed very recently. Those laws are how the left is trying to create gender equality right now. If you have other ideas you're free to propose them.

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  • [–] 2 points 14 hours ago*

    It's a case of those laws need to exist, because of gender inequality, but when things become more equitable then it should be changed to not the removal but the widening of them

    All genders getting the same amount of (increased) parenthood leave, for example

    All genders being allowed to fight in wars if they want to. Nobody being forced to fight in wars.

    But the way you were wording it felt like you're saying "THOSE DAMN FEMINISTS GET AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE"

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