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[–] 71 points 1 day ago (52 children)

It's a military vessel. The bigger question to me is why don't they turn off all the safety protocols around the transporters more often?

I think at least half of their problems could be solved if they used transporters to intentionally kill people or to disable other vessels. "Their shields are down? Beam their life support system and parts of the ship's hull into space."

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  • [–] 1 point 2 hours ago*

    Here's another question: In a world where you can remotely read the quantum state of every atom of someone's body from (at minimum) thousands of miles away (as this is what would be required for beaming from the surface of a planet into orbit, a fairly ordinary task by Trek standards), how could informational security exist? A transporter sensor array ought to be able to read the screen on any computer on any ship without specific shielding, as that would be a comparatively macroscopic task, compared to transporting a living being.

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  • [–] 39 points 1 day ago (9 children)

    No it is not a military vessel. It is an exploration vessel. That is the core mission. Not sure how anyone who has actually watched StarTrek miss this key point.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 day ago* (7 children)

    Whether or not Starfleet is a military force is a pretty debated topic, you really can't brush it off like it's a closed case.

    They have command rank and structure similar to a military. They have ships. The ships have weapons - powerful ones. Sometimes they use the weapons.

    We can argue "well they don't want to use them," but a lot of earth militaries don't really want to be in combat either, until they have to be.

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  • [–] 8 points 23 hours ago (1 child)

    I think that people who say that Starfleet is not a military organization must just have a different definition of "military" than I do.

    In addition to all of the things you mentioned, when Earth is attacked, Starfleet frequently orders ships to return and fight.

    So, they're either a police or a military, and the fact that they may face court martial for disobeying orders to fight really decides it in the direction of military for me.

    That's by my own definition of military. I was looking at the Star Trek wiki and it seems that Roddenberry was very much against Starfleet being the military. He must just have a different criteria.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 hours ago

    I think Enterprise covered it fairly well. They definitely started it more towards the science/exploratory side but quickly ran into the "1000001 ways to die horribly in space" and started jerry-rigging stuff like phasers and photon torpedoes from what was formerly mining equipment etc. Even then they did still have a command structure similar to military, which just makes sense from a practical "who's in charge of what" perspective. They also do have a mix of civilian and more military-style ranks.

    Starfleet may have an overall scientific mission/objective, but it definitely developed along the the structure of a military protectorate or coalition, though again that was likely due to a certain amount of necessity. I'm pretty sure that exploratory or trading vessels in historic times tended towards that in some regard.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 day ago (4 children)

    It depends what Star Trek you are watching as well.

    Defiant is very definitely a military vessel. Next Gen Enterprise has like a thousand people on it or something so it's less clear.

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  • [–] 5 points 23 hours ago

    Good point. Even if it’s science and exploration, wtf do they need a thousand people for? Unless they are trying to find some place to colonize, but it’s pretty clear from watching the show they are not. A lot of those people don’t wear uniforms, so they are not part of this rank hierarchy. What are all those people doing there?

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  • [–] 42 points 1 day ago (10 children)

    Shhhhh... It's a TV show and the transporters were always just a plot device anyway.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 day ago (8 children)

    Yes, that's why it was a response to the holodeck question, which has the same answer, only the holodeck is far less immediately powerful.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    The holodeck is also just a plot device. Instead of the TOS penchant for time travel and "oh no, we ended up on Earth in 18XX/19XX" plots, they could hit the Holodeck as the release valve. Lower stakes, lower contrivance barrier to get the crew into the situation.

    You want real life? The safety protocols keep people from breaking the damn thing. It wouldn't render half the dangerous stuff, like bullets flying too fast to bother rendering. The emitters wouldn't be able to render objects inside a body, so bullets would only penetrate a few cm at best if they did render. Knives and sharp objects might not render sharp enough to cause real harm, and might not render into the would, either, so also low penetrative range. Chemical reactions are visual simulations, so acid doesn't really burn. Poison isn't real poison because it's a hologram that feels real, not real chemicals. Blunt force trauma, crushing force, and maybe heat, might be the only guaranteed ways to do violence in the Holodeck with the protocols turned off.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    I like the part about how the holodeck power was separate so they could fuckoff there when they were about to die instead of hooking that power supply up and getting life support back.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago (4 children)

    .... What? That was for real a thing? JFC

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    I mean, the holodeck probably theoretically requires at least most of the power available on the whole Earth right now. Wouldn't want it to touch the ship's other systems.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 hours ago

    It's basically just tractor beam forcefields, maybe not the whole Earth.

    And I can see how an IRL explanation is that of someone is doing something crazy and flipping around, if everything disappears, they might get hurt falling even a meter at an awkward angle.

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  • [–] 5 points 23 hours ago (4 children)

    Beaming out their life support system seems pretty slow. Why not just beam a bunch of cinder blocks into their body cavities.

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  • [–] 5 points 23 hours ago (3 children)

    Then you'd have to worry about sourcing cinder blocks. How about, instead of cinder blocks, you beam another crew person in, or just their head? That way, you get two at once.

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  • [–] 3 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

    I assume you can re-use the cinder blacks. Though I imagine pretty much anything that will roughly fit into a body cavity or skull would do.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 day ago* (12 children)

    Its always been dumb that transporting opposing crews into space or directly into brig cells isn't the main strategy for any culture with transporter tech.

    Oh, their shields are down. Better poke tiny holes in their hull for an hour and hope they don't kill us first.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 day ago* (11 children)

    In real life it would absolutely be this. There could be no weapon more powerful than a transporter.

    But it would make for a very dull show and that is the reason they don't (usually) do it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 day ago (7 children)

    For sure. Its just a thing we have to accept to keep the writers from having to spend all day working through this shit to the point where its just boring reality.

    Like how "the ability to destroy a WHOLE planet" is treated as some kind of significant technological advantage in so many universes that also treat propelling a hundred thousands tons of spaceship well beyond the speed of light as a trivial every day thing. A star destroyer or galaxy class ship traveling at a multiple of C is a thousand times more devastating than any super-weapon that has ever threatened to upset the balance of power in a science fiction story.

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  • [–] 1 point 14 hours ago

    Eh, it's a decent four episode arc. The protagonists try it, it works, they use it once very effectively, they try to use it again and the antagonists have pattern scramblers all over their ships. And then the antagonist uses it in a different, more devastating way, so now transport blocking becomes decoupled from shields in the plot.

    I'd rather stick with poking holes

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago (4 children)

    The ship isn't moving at C. Its warp drive is bending space around it, the ship is actually at rest. Therefore, we aren't accelerating the ship's mass to ridiculous speeds at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 23 hours ago (3 children)

    Then what is the navigational deflector for?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    They would just have to find a reason to disable it via plot devices before every battle.

    Kinda like in action movies where the heroes come out shooting guns at each other but immediately get them batted away so that they can begin hand to hand fighting.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    Military? What military?

    It's an exploration fleet.

    However, much like myself, they recognize that the place they're in isn't a peaceful utopia where everyone gets along, and nobody wants to push others around just for being there. So of course they're armed and armored exploration vessels.

    The ranks and protocol just make for standardized things across the fleet so people don't need 500 different ways of doing things, and can integrate with each other more easily. Ranks make chain of command clear in stressful situations.

    In very few instances is starfleet's intent to end the life of anyone else. Why punch a hole through shields and beam a quantum torpedo into the enemy ship's engineering section when you want them to stop fighting and talk things out? Hard to do when you're dead.

    Starfleet has similar patterns to militaries, but as a peaceful exploration focused group tries to use peaceful measures at every turn, even when their opponent has refused to listen every time.

    Hell, even the romulans got help when they needed it despite centuries of constant threats, fleet action, intrusions into territory, subterfuge and sabotage, and outright hostility. The klingons are allies despite once being at war, and older generations still being distrusting of the federation.

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  • [–] 3 points 14 hours ago

    The ranks and protocol just make for standardized things across the fleet so people don’t need 500 different ways of doing things, and can integrate with each other more easily. Ranks make chain of command clear in stressful situations.

    It's also just how real life ships have worked for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Ships are inherently dangerous, you can't discuss everything to death or have two parts of the crew follow mutually exclusive plans when you're supposed to respond to an emergency.

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