When you make an emotional plea like that, not based in reality, I think of when I was living with my aunt and uncle, and my aunt was so upset I was angering my uncle by not giving in to him.

He was going to abuse us regardless of what we did, I'd been in the situation for a few years by then and saw the patterns, and when you're in that situation and understand the history of how that individual acts, you don't fling yourself at the abuser's feet once again...you fight.

I fought and got free. Got bruises and my hair ripped out of my head for it...but I got out. My aunt put up with a few more years of abuse because she wasn't willing to put up with that bit, the dangerous bit when he popped off when someone defied him.

The situation in Ukraine is (writ large of course) similar to the dynamics of what goes on in an abusive home. The stakes are higher--more lives lost--but the dynamics underneath are still human dynamics. Which needs to be understood when it comes to negotiation and "civility" and such. It all comes back to the nature of the human animal.

You have a lying abuser at top (Russia) who tries to divert attention by tugging on heartstrings with pretty words while they are placing the blame for the war on the victims who "just won't stop fighting--don't they want to stop getting hurt?" as if fighting someone who is already hurting you is abusive, as if fighting back against them is irrational.

You don't play around with idealism with these people, because they've already shown they are not willing to hold up their side of that social contract. (Although they are cunning and know using it on YOU might get you to do things against your own interest.) It's NOT a given that stopping fighting will stop the loss of lives, that the abusers will keep their word once they've given it--with the Wagner dude as an example, who stopped what he was doing presumably because he was given promises if he did stop, then was blown up in an airplane shortly after.

Being civil only works if the other person is also being civil. When they're not, other methods of dealing with a threat have to be taken. In an individual home, like my situation, I was lucky enough that simply leaving was enough. It was wildly "uncivil"--everyone gets super upset when you say you ran away from home or don't talk to family...but it was effective to change the situation I was in. I didn't need to be violent myself, just physically remove myself.

Nations, unfortunately, can't pick up their borders and walk away to a place where their neighbors can't reach them, they are by their nature very land-bound. So you get war instead, when civility--diplomacy--doesn't get the result needed. (Just like talking to my uncle wouldn't stop him from doing things, it'd only cause more trouble because he'd get even angrier that you're "back talking" and not giving in.)

BTW, I'm not really responding to this guy, I doubt they'll read or understand what I'm saying as the wringing fingers appeasement is an emotional ploy meant to get people to stop thinking and start crying inside.

Even if he's real I'd be surprised if he understood. My aunt never did understand my point when I tried to explain what was wrong in our situation. There's a reason it takes X amount of years and X amount of tries for abused spouses to get free.

I hope this is interesting enough for lurkers, though.