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The good guys
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this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2026
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Human nature isn't evil, it's dumb. We can only focus on what's in front of us because we're inherently biased towards the self. That's the source of billionaires, wealth inequality, and the Iron Law of Oligarchy. Humans are very much capable of overcoming this issue, but to do so we have to acknowledge that it is an issue. Putting your fingers in your ears and saying "my team knows the way" isn't going to help anyone. Especially when it's obvious that your team does NOT have a handle on these issues either.
I disagree that there is such thing as evil. It's a distancing tactic for people to give space between the horrors they know humanity can do and what they believe that they're capable of. It's just a knock-on from tribalism and othering.
Pretending that my argument is about what you want to talk about instead of what I'm actually saying is cowardice. Like I said, China is next up which is why I'm using them as the example. But since you're going to sit on an irrelevant thing in an attempt to make me appear like I can't come up with an example, here are the concerning things about China right now.
They have massive income inequality. Second most billionaires of any country in the world.
They favor creating national cohesion by reducing differences between populations in their country, rather than creating a unifying national identity aimed towards some goal.
They create treaties with poorer countries that boil down to "we'll develop the infrastructure to extract this resource in exchange for getting the extracted resource", which is eerily close to early colonization tactics.
They have imperial ambitions on sovereign (or formerly sovereign) territories that they consider to belong to them (Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong)
I don't think these are unique to China or even particularly egregious, but they are signs that if China gets on top they're going to do what every other country does when they get on top. Use it to benefit their citizens at the cost of everyone else.
Evil, stupid, whatever. You're fundamentally misanthropic, and I have no interest in that shit.
As a Marxist I get to have revolutionary optimism. I can believe humans are better than this, and even though the hitherto history of the world is the history of class struggle, we can get past this dark age through scientific socialism.
You, meanwhile, are convinced that nothing is going to change when the US empire is inevitably defeated. I feel bad for you.
Nah man. I got that same revolutionary optimism. I'm just having a real hard time connecting my thoughts to words today. It's pissing me off, too, which is making it even harder for me to make clear what I'm trying to say.
I know humans are better than this, and I also know that requires us to acknowledge what our gaps are so we can address them. Just don't have the words today, just all the wrong ones. Sorry man. Cheers
You mean to say imperial ambitions, not empirical ambitions.
E: also you’re not using that word right.
If you’re open to taking some criticism, it seems like you have a media based understanding of the world. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, we all internalize stuff from media, but you’re talking to people who tend to have an understanding that’s rooted in study as opposed to media and who have a communist perspective that reenforces their understanding because communists love writing books about stuff almost as much as they love reading books about stuff.
Once you get hit with the ol’ tankie wall of links, consider clicking on some of them. It’s easy to see someone posting a mess of links in response to you as an argumentation strategy, but it’s actually an education strategy.
As someone guilty of this, I actually disagree. The wall of links is more for argumentation, as you want as much supporting evidence as possible. For education, the person you're talking to has to want to learn, in which case fewer, specific links tends to be remarkably more effective.
Now, there's always hope that onlookers will see and click the many links, especially ones they are curious about. However, when there are many in a comment, the hope generally is in persuading the audience to agree with me, which then turns to them either checking the links directly (always fantastic) or deliberately trying to educate themselves.
Marxist pedagogy is an understudied area I'm trying to work on improving in my own life.
😏
It’s okay that I called all people dumb because I didn’t call them evil.
Evil is immoral
Dumb is just a limitation of your meat suit
They're not equivalent, like not even in the same category, let alone the same level.
And now you are dehumanizing people by equating them to nothing but a piece of meat.
Do you u see how exhausting pedantic rhetoric that lacks any meaningful substance can really get?
Yeah, man. I didn't realize how much I was struggling connecting my thoughts to what I was saying and kept trying to make it clear, which always comes off as me engaging in pedantry. Sorry man, got my foot stuck in my mouth today. Cheers
It’s not that evil and dumb are the same thing, it’s that consigning all of humanity into the same category makes a fundamental mistake.
Yeah, thanks for the advice. I can tell that they're trying to flood me with information in order to get me to shut up, so I can't make myself read those links. I've tried a couple of times, but even with material I'm extremely open to... non-fiction is a no-go for my narrative keyed brain. The ADHD is strong with me.
I really should've shut the hell up once I realized I put my foot in my mouth earlier. Sorry, and thanks for the grace
It’s okay. You did good.
I don't think anyone is referring to evil as some sort of ghostly spectre that forces people to do things. It's a descriptive word that is used to describe actions of people or groups of people.
Yeah, a description that is given to others that we can then use to justify doing bad things to them. I'm not saying it's a mythological force or others treat it as such. I'm saying that it's a thought terminating cliché that lets us skirt around deeply thinking about why someone else is doing something.
America is evil
Empire is evil
Capitalists are evil
Oligarchy is evil
Things we would both agree to be true. That doesn't change the fact that they are more than just "evil". By labeling them as such, I can say they're deserving of scorn and hatred and can safely be placed somewhere away from my identity. I no longer have to think about them because they are evil and far away from me, since I'm not evil.
I've seen Marxist Leninists fall into this trap as well. Even in this discussion. I bring up concerns of oligarchy, they say that that's minimalized capitalism so it's "evil contained". But the problem is that oligarchy and capitalism might be related, but they're not the same thing. Oligarchy pops up everywhere (literally called The Iron Rule of Oligarchy) and isn't caused by capitalism, it's just that capitalism is rife with it. They treat the two evils as being related because they must be because they're evil.
Who? What?
Have you actually talked to a Marxist. And understood what they say. For you would not be saying such nonsense if you had!
Actually you have to stop talking and thinking, because I cast Word of Power "Evil", and it hit. You have successfully been labeled as "Evil" and are now silenced for 1d4 turns. You are also now vulnerable to Holly Word "Liberty" for the duration of the silence.
https://lemmy.ml/comment/26611987
Don't no true Scotsman, please
The "Iron Rule of Oligarchy" was created by an Italian socialist-turned-fascist (literally went from German SPD to eventually Italian fascism). It isn't a real law, it's an idealist argument against democratic institutions.
A Marxist saying that class is more important than idealist notions of power is not at all contradictory.
But it says Rule in the name! Are you telling me that an Italian fascist would mislead people about political theory?
Which actually is hilarious. Your system is bad because it creates hierarchy with a small distribution of power, said the literal fascist.
"It's not the people committing the inhumane and cruel acts society collectively describe as evil who are actually evil. It's the people using the word evil to describe their actions who are really at fault."
That's about as deep as a spoon. The word is not a spell that automatically ends conversations, it doesn't automatically magic people's brains into believing any accusations. If I called Mr Rogers the most evil man who had ever existed, you would scoff. Because it doesn't resonate with the truth it is easily disregarded as any other false accusation. The reason the label bothers you is because there is at least some truth to saying capitalism is evil, or America is evil.
What? Maybe you are projecting some personal quirks on the descriptor evil, but most people do not treat words like magical commands. It's not a damned word of power, it's an adjective. Do you object to al adjective, or just specifically the word evil, like some kind of shitty holy paladin?
Does this logic work.....? I see a guy punch someone in the face. "That was violent, but I'm not violent so I don't have to think about that anymore. "
You do know that we are discussing topics in an open forum and not playing dungeons and dragons, right?
The iron rule of oligarchy is political theory even if it labels itself as law. It also only pertains to democracies, especially liberal democracies as capitalism helps organize hierarchy to extract wealth from labour.
People aren't falling into some trap, they just don't agree with your claims. There is a reason Marxist countries are described as a dictatorship of the proletariat. There is some hierarchy organized democratically, but it is better insulated from oligarchic forces that work to influence the democratic process through the same economic controls built into liberal democracies.
Because liberal democracies are built around a capitalist economy, and are meant to be oligarchic in nature. What do you think the Senate was created for? Not all oligarchy are capitalist economies, but all capitalist countries are at least oligarchic or sometimes dictatorships.