you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 182 points 3 months ago (68 children)

He analyzed capitalism (and religion), and his model predicted regular worsening crises when the market couldn't expand further, leading to its eventual abolition.

He was employed as a journalist and published books on history and economics.

I swear libs just make stuff up that sounds right and then believe the shit they fantasized

  • source
  • hideshow 68 child comments
  • [–] 72 points 3 months ago* (35 children)

    > 4chan user
    > lib

    Pick one.

    I do agree that anon's take is bullshit.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 35 child comments
  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (32 children)

    Lemmites just be spouting buzzwords at this point.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 32 child comments
  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago (31 children)

    Liberalism is the philosophy of capitalism, the guy in OP is definitionly a lib.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 31 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    Yes, historically that is the case. Semantics drift over time, though. Even though both liberals and conservatives are classical liberals, only one actually still uses the liberal label. When you don't acknowledge semantic drift, you alienate others because they can't follow what you're saying. If you want to destroy capitalism, you need to make the circle of people bigger, not shoulder people out before they begin.

    Phrased another way, you want to move the Overton window leftwards, not contribute to it shrinking to the right.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Nah. We don't need to surrender the overton window to liberals and let them dictate that the alternative to capitalism is capitalism, except the workers get more crumbs and minorities get conditional protections. Moving the Overton window left of the current rightwing framing requires people to realize how rightwing the current framing is.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yes... by teaching people. Meaning you need to reach them. If the way you talk is a barrier to being understood, you're going to reach way less people, my man.

    I'm gonna quote scripture, not cause I'm Christian or anything (catholic apostate atheist), but because my sister fell into a Christian cult so this is an example that quickly comes to mind (her "church" had a real goofy interpretation of this that a lot of new American Christian Cults regularly have). 1 Corinthians 14:3-8, where Paul tells the Corinthians, who were holding mass at the time in Hebrew, that they need to speak to be understood. If they hold mass speaking a language that no one outside their church understands, they only lift themselves up. But if they speak to be understood, then they can lift up everyone.

    Sorry to say, while using liberal in the way you do is definitely a nice shorthand to be able to identify people who are safe for you to express your views with, it also alienates those who don't know what the historical term means. Speak Latin, dammit (that was how the catholic church misinterpreted Paul's teaching in this letter. And the new Christians use it to promote speaking tongues. Aren't religions great? /s)

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago*

    I’d also chime in that definition change and can mean very different things in different places. It’s a bit silly how frequently I see other left leaning people, purely online, demonize anyone using liberal as a label.

    To me it comes off as a bit manufactured division. It’s far too abundant to see on spaces like Reddit and certain Lemmy instances, yet near complete absent from offline discourse.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (10 replies)
  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    No, that's neoliberalism. Which is a misnomer, because actual liberalism emerged from the humanist tradition and was a political philosophy, not an economic one. It's where we got ideas like human rights, and rules that restrict governments' abilities to oppress their citizens.

    Neoliberalism misapplies the idea of "freedom" the same way anarcho-capitalists do. But I don't think anyone here would argue that all anarchists are anarcho-capitalists.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    https://annas-archive.is/books/289061-289061-liberalism

    Heres a book going through all the major liberal philosophers and how they dealt with the conflicts inherent to liberalism.

    Tldr, core, overriding freedom of liberalism is and has always been for the dominant class to economically exploit the working class.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    One author with a clear spin isn't exactly a comprehensive literature review. You can probably find a book that says anything about anything.

    If you pay attention to historical context you can see how liberalism was an improvement over the systems that had been in place prior, i.e. feudalism and monarchy.

    The course of human society doesn't magically jump from "terrible" to "great." That never happens. More realistically, society makes incremental progress over generations as ideas develop and grow, catch on and are fought for and ultimately prevail over previous ideas and old systems which start to show cracks and ultimately fail. There are cycles of backsliding of course, and all progress is a battle where victory is never guaranteed, but that's the gist of it, and it's always incremental.

    Without liberalism, there could never have been a civil rights movement, or suffragettes, or gay marriage. All these things built upon the foundation that was set for them by liberalism so long prior that people had already taken it for granted and forgotten about its origins.

    Just because it wasn't perfect from its outset doesn't mean it wasn't an improvement over what existed prior, or that it couldn't be improved on further. And the course of history throughout the twentieth century is a story of liberalism prevailing. So much was achieved in those grueling years and decades that the world of the 1901 is practically unrecognizable to the world of 2001. That progress wasn't achieved in a vacuum. It was achieved within a liberal system, in which ideas of human rights had already been formulated and enshrined in constitutional law, albeit imperfectly.

    People were able to fight to expand the protections and rights of those laws precisely because they already existed. There were imperfect laws and systems in place that those activists were able to fight to improve and expand. Without liberalism, there wouldn't have been even that.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • load more comments (11 replies)
  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago* (7 children)

    nobody cares about facts or details. they only care about marx = communism.

    he was a better economist than he was a political theorist. but his economic works are long, boring, and technical, and his political works are far shorter and dramatic, so that's all the average undergraduate cares about.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

    Why would you say he's a bad political theorist? If we measure the success of a political theory by its ability to take, hold and exercise power Marxism is one of the most successful political ideologies in the world. Sure it never "beat" liberal capitalism but it came the closest of any other theory to challenging it.

    Or are you doubting it's accuracy more then its success?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    If we measure the success of a political theory by its ability to take, hold and exercise power

    The success of a political theory should be measured by its ability to improve quality of life. Taking power may be a prerequisite, but that alone is not success. Seeing the seizure of state power as an end in itself is a mistake that leads to an authoritarian dead end.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

    By your definition the billionaires and the politicians they back would be unsuccessful political actors as they're making the quality of life worse for most people. I'd say they are very successful political actors, and that is the problem.

    In my opinion politics is "war without bloodshed". It is a means by which a group can accomplish certain goals that another group opposes.

    One side could have a goal of improving the quality of life for the poor while the other could have a goal of improving it for the rich. Politics is what both sides do to try and accomplish there goals.

    Political theory is like military theory in the sense that it lays out strategies to defeat the opposition and accomplish those goals. While a military theory is proven correct by winning a battle, a political theory can be proven correct by winning an election.

    Politics is a means, not an end. The end/goal is determined by ideology , class position, self interest, racism etc.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    You don't have to adopt the ruling elites' definition of success. You talk about politics being a means and not an end, but you still insist on calling winning an election success. If the end/goal is determined by ideology then so is the criteria for success, and my personal criteria for success is improving quality of life for as many people as possible. Winning an election can be a means to that end, but just seizing power does not by itself merit the political theory that enabled it. Fascism has proven quite capable of seizing power in liberal democracies with capitalist economies, but I would certainly not call that success.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    A political theory being popular doesn't mean it's a good or inherently sound theory. For example, fascists have made the "immigrants are ruining our country" theory very common in the mainstream and people have latched on to it to explain their lived experience. Fascism is "challenging" classical liberalism pretty successfully. That doesn't make it logically sound or a viable strategy.

    The problem I have with Marx discussions are people cherry picking across his work. Some of it is philosophical, some is economic analysis and some is aspirational politics. Usually along the lines of "his theoretical economic framework is mostly sound in X case, therefore his political prognosis is correct".

    Marx was living in a certain time with certain quantifiable constraints and a specific lived perspective, writing on contemporary economic conditions. When I point that out I'm always met with "Well he didn't need to know about [modern human cognitive research / studies on the specific limitations of earth's resources / the scalability of technical surveillance & media distribution] to project its effects".

    I vehemently assert that our modern perspective fundamentally outmodes some of his base arguments.


    As an example, Marx's theory has important pieces built around his concept of Gattungswesen and it's role in alienation of labor. The friction of that alienation can be traced to forces used to pacify labor. His work views it as something that, while malleable with biological aspects, is fundamental to the human experience.

    That makes sense from a perspective of the mid 19th century, where phrenology was still a cutting edge science and opium was a crude panecea for most behavioral illness. But in the 21st century we've mapped the human genome & are delving into gene editing, are gaining an ever deeper biochemical understanding of the human brain, refining models of addiction, and incrementally advancing pharmaceutical treatment of neuroses. Humans are looking more and more like a solvable biological problem.

    Marx assumes that one clear reason we cannot reach a stable society under capitalism is the sheer weight of labor discontent. But as of 2026, I'm of the opinion that we're far closer to total pacification than liberation of the working class. If you can prescribe serenity to the ruling class while the masses clamor for biological contentment, your political prognosis wildly changes.


    Theorists in Marx's lineage will try to account for this (or similar arguments) by refining his theory to fit reality. But they do so with the prior bias of intending the inevitable victory of the proletariat. That's not a sound foundation for constructing a theoretical framework and it makes these debates pointless and frustrating.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Precisely. He's genius at certain things, but just because of that, doesn't mean the other things he does are good or legitimate.

    Communist manifesto was highly accessible, so are many popular texts that espouse simplistic and idealistic theories about the world, politics or not. That doesn't mean they are accurate, useful, or pragmatic today, or even at the time of their conception.

    Agreed that the issue with Marxists generally is their limited understanding of Marx and their vast over use and generalization of his theories, but that's not exclusive to Marxists. Lots of followers of theories are complete morons and turn critique and insight into blind belief and rhetoric around which they then justify violence in the name of.

    Marx 'positive' theory makes many social and psychological assumptions that are just... obviously untrue esp in regard to modern theorizing. At it's heart he replies on a modification of the 'noble savage' myth, that there is some 'true' or 'natural' state of individual human living that is being 'oppressed' by 'society' and his political system will 'liberate' us from it... which when you start to think about that you see how ridiculous that is. But that conception was deeply popular in the 18th and 19th centuries, because everyone was still queuing off of Hobbes. Modern (post WW2) political theories don't really by so much into any 'state of nature'. Their idealizing is more of a calculus assuming society already must and will forever exist.

    I am not too familiar with modern marxists re-workings of his theories to try and fit 'reality' but from what I've seen they still heavily borrow a lot of his assumptions about human nature being one way and 'society/capitalism' 'corrupting' it. They treat his work and their theories more like as if it were religious revelation, rather than taking a more pragmatic approach or one based in the more modern economic and social science understandings we have, maybe of which are only a generation or two old.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (23 replies)