▲ 383 ▼ Single-sex toilets must exclude transgender people, says Equality and Human Rights Commission (www.theguardian.com) submitted 3 months ago by Valuy@lemmy.zip to c/world@lemmy.world 379 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 30 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children) Biological sex is a dogwhistle made digestible to appease the apathetic moderate Edit: and this entire thread is proof of that 🍿 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 11 points 3 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 21 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) That isn't even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don't even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers (MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it's run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago (2 children) the term "biological sex" doesnt make much sense tho what are all of those complex medical treatments trans people can get, if not biology? far more advanced and interesting biology at that and "biological sex" isnt a binary either, 1 in 40 people are intersex, mostly with almost no effect, but not in the binary either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) Sure it does, it's the sex you have biologically. The second thing you're talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both "sex" and "gender" are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, "assuming all your bits work, here's how you would contribute to the reproductive process." Gender says, "regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here's how society will treat you and expect you to behave." "Biological gender" doesn't exist, just like "sociological sex" doesn't exist. So I guess in that sense, "biological sex" doesn't make sense, because there's no other kind. Edit: got banned from an entire separate community (an unthemed meme community no less lol) for this discussion because they thought I was transphobic 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️ Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll just stay out of it next time 👍🤣 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies) [–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children) Yes, and the language for that is "biological sex." If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex. "Biological sex" is poor language because it doesn't actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor's office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches. If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is "are you able to get pregnant". It's not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it's expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can't answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can't get pregnant and trans men who can. Doctors don't immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded ... But claiming that doctors suddenly don't know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue. Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I've heard it described as "trans broken leg syndrome". It's a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it's a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn't a cis man. That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that "biological sex" is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take. This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I've even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary "biological sex" marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it. And besides, if "biological sex" is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast "gender" with in the first place? Individual physical characteristics. Call it "Sex" and leave it open ended for all I care. It's the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term "biological". It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle. Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies) [–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) You are sealioning. You don't speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, "biological sex" is a transphobic dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (11 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments load more comments (11 replies) [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) Just FYI, I've never been asked about my "biological sex" from a doctor, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either. You've been asked about your sex. That's it. "Biological sex" is a right-wing dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] WalrusDragonOnABike@reddthat.com 5 points 3 months ago* (22 children) I've yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like "might you be pregnant?", but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments load more comments (22 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 11 points 3 months ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 21 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) That isn't even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don't even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers (MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it's run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago (2 children) the term "biological sex" doesnt make much sense tho what are all of those complex medical treatments trans people can get, if not biology? far more advanced and interesting biology at that and "biological sex" isnt a binary either, 1 in 40 people are intersex, mostly with almost no effect, but not in the binary either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) Sure it does, it's the sex you have biologically. The second thing you're talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both "sex" and "gender" are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, "assuming all your bits work, here's how you would contribute to the reproductive process." Gender says, "regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here's how society will treat you and expect you to behave." "Biological gender" doesn't exist, just like "sociological sex" doesn't exist. So I guess in that sense, "biological sex" doesn't make sense, because there's no other kind. Edit: got banned from an entire separate community (an unthemed meme community no less lol) for this discussion because they thought I was transphobic 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️ Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll just stay out of it next time 👍🤣 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies) [–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children) Yes, and the language for that is "biological sex." If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex. "Biological sex" is poor language because it doesn't actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor's office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches. If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is "are you able to get pregnant". It's not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it's expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can't answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can't get pregnant and trans men who can. Doctors don't immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded ... But claiming that doctors suddenly don't know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue. Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I've heard it described as "trans broken leg syndrome". It's a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it's a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn't a cis man. That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that "biological sex" is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take. This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I've even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary "biological sex" marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it. And besides, if "biological sex" is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast "gender" with in the first place? Individual physical characteristics. Call it "Sex" and leave it open ended for all I care. It's the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term "biological". It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle. Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies) [–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) You are sealioning. You don't speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, "biological sex" is a transphobic dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (11 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments load more comments (11 replies) [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) Just FYI, I've never been asked about my "biological sex" from a doctor, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either. You've been asked about your sex. That's it. "Biological sex" is a right-wing dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] WalrusDragonOnABike@reddthat.com 5 points 3 months ago* (22 children) I've yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like "might you be pregnant?", but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments load more comments (22 replies)
[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 21 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) That isn't even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don't even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers (MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it's run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago (2 children) the term "biological sex" doesnt make much sense tho what are all of those complex medical treatments trans people can get, if not biology? far more advanced and interesting biology at that and "biological sex" isnt a binary either, 1 in 40 people are intersex, mostly with almost no effect, but not in the binary either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) Sure it does, it's the sex you have biologically. The second thing you're talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both "sex" and "gender" are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, "assuming all your bits work, here's how you would contribute to the reproductive process." Gender says, "regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here's how society will treat you and expect you to behave." "Biological gender" doesn't exist, just like "sociological sex" doesn't exist. So I guess in that sense, "biological sex" doesn't make sense, because there's no other kind. Edit: got banned from an entire separate community (an unthemed meme community no less lol) for this discussion because they thought I was transphobic 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️ Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll just stay out of it next time 👍🤣 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies) [–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children) Yes, and the language for that is "biological sex." If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex. "Biological sex" is poor language because it doesn't actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor's office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches. If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is "are you able to get pregnant". It's not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it's expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can't answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can't get pregnant and trans men who can. Doctors don't immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded ... But claiming that doctors suddenly don't know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue. Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I've heard it described as "trans broken leg syndrome". It's a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it's a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn't a cis man. That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that "biological sex" is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take. This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I've even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary "biological sex" marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it. And besides, if "biological sex" is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast "gender" with in the first place? Individual physical characteristics. Call it "Sex" and leave it open ended for all I care. It's the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term "biological". It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle. Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies) [–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) You are sealioning. You don't speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, "biological sex" is a transphobic dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (11 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments load more comments (11 replies) [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) Just FYI, I've never been asked about my "biological sex" from a doctor, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either. You've been asked about your sex. That's it. "Biological sex" is a right-wing dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago (2 children) the term "biological sex" doesnt make much sense tho what are all of those complex medical treatments trans people can get, if not biology? far more advanced and interesting biology at that and "biological sex" isnt a binary either, 1 in 40 people are intersex, mostly with almost no effect, but not in the binary either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) Sure it does, it's the sex you have biologically. The second thing you're talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both "sex" and "gender" are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, "assuming all your bits work, here's how you would contribute to the reproductive process." Gender says, "regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here's how society will treat you and expect you to behave." "Biological gender" doesn't exist, just like "sociological sex" doesn't exist. So I guess in that sense, "biological sex" doesn't make sense, because there's no other kind. Edit: got banned from an entire separate community (an unthemed meme community no less lol) for this discussion because they thought I was transphobic 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️ Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll just stay out of it next time 👍🤣 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies) [–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children) Yes, and the language for that is "biological sex." If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex. "Biological sex" is poor language because it doesn't actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor's office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches. If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is "are you able to get pregnant". It's not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it's expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can't answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can't get pregnant and trans men who can. Doctors don't immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded ... But claiming that doctors suddenly don't know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue. Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I've heard it described as "trans broken leg syndrome". It's a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it's a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn't a cis man. That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that "biological sex" is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take. This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I've even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary "biological sex" marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it. And besides, if "biological sex" is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast "gender" with in the first place? Individual physical characteristics. Call it "Sex" and leave it open ended for all I care. It's the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term "biological". It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle. Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies) [–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) You are sealioning. You don't speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, "biological sex" is a transphobic dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (11 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments load more comments (11 replies) [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) Just FYI, I've never been asked about my "biological sex" from a doctor, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either. You've been asked about your sex. That's it. "Biological sex" is a right-wing dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago (2 children) the term "biological sex" doesnt make much sense tho what are all of those complex medical treatments trans people can get, if not biology? far more advanced and interesting biology at that and "biological sex" isnt a binary either, 1 in 40 people are intersex, mostly with almost no effect, but not in the binary either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) Sure it does, it's the sex you have biologically. The second thing you're talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both "sex" and "gender" are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, "assuming all your bits work, here's how you would contribute to the reproductive process." Gender says, "regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here's how society will treat you and expect you to behave." "Biological gender" doesn't exist, just like "sociological sex" doesn't exist. So I guess in that sense, "biological sex" doesn't make sense, because there's no other kind. Edit: got banned from an entire separate community (an unthemed meme community no less lol) for this discussion because they thought I was transphobic 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️ Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll just stay out of it next time 👍🤣 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies)
[+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) "birth-assigned sex" or "assigned sex" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child) Sure it does, it's the sex you have biologically. The second thing you're talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both "sex" and "gender" are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, "assuming all your bits work, here's how you would contribute to the reproductive process." Gender says, "regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here's how society will treat you and expect you to behave." "Biological gender" doesn't exist, just like "sociological sex" doesn't exist. So I guess in that sense, "biological sex" doesn't make sense, because there's no other kind. Edit: got banned from an entire separate community (an unthemed meme community no less lol) for this discussion because they thought I was transphobic 🤣🤦♂️🤷♂️ Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll just stay out of it next time 👍🤣 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies)
[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago (10 children) Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they're natural or otherwise. "Biological sex" is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It's just sex, or sex assigned at birth. "Biological sex" is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments load more comments (10 replies)
[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children) Yes, and the language for that is "biological sex." If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex. "Biological sex" is poor language because it doesn't actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor's office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches. If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is "are you able to get pregnant". It's not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it's expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can't answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can't get pregnant and trans men who can. Doctors don't immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded ... But claiming that doctors suddenly don't know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue. Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I've heard it described as "trans broken leg syndrome". It's a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it's a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn't a cis man. That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that "biological sex" is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take. This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I've even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary "biological sex" marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it. And besides, if "biological sex" is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast "gender" with in the first place? Individual physical characteristics. Call it "Sex" and leave it open ended for all I care. It's the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term "biological". It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle. Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies)
[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) You are sealioning. You don't speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, "biological sex" is a transphobic dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (11 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments load more comments (11 replies)
[+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 3 months ago (11 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments load more comments (11 replies)
[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) Just FYI, I've never been asked about my "biological sex" from a doctor, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either. You've been asked about your sex. That's it. "Biological sex" is a right-wing dog whistle. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago It's not redundant. I'd say it's wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone's sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth. It is not implied to mean "biological sex" because that's not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn't. So immediately jumping to "dogwhistle" every time you hear someone say something that's supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you're just going to alienate people who then won't take you seriously in the future. Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn't change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn't mean that's the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That's it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] WalrusDragonOnABike@reddthat.com 5 points 3 months ago* (22 children) I've yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like "might you be pregnant?", but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments load more comments (22 replies)