soyaboya comments on General Discussion Thread

General Discussion Thread - Juche 115, Week 21 (thelemmy.club)

submitted 5 months ago by GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml [M] to c/genzedong@lemmygrad.ml

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Welcome again to everybody. Make yourself at home. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.

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[–] soyaboya@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

The origin of the word is not ableist.

This is precisely not about etymology. Modern linguistics is descriptive, not prescriptive (as is obvious to anyone familiar with dialectics and materialism). Words like "dumb," "slow," and "edit: the r-word" that have origins in explicitly ableist use are not worse than "stupid" in the way I'm criticizing them. Especially "dumb." It's synonymous with "stupid" and most of the time not used to mean deaf. So I'm not saying don't say insert common phrases in English because it's insert a bigotry endemic in Anglophone culture. Although, that is a valid concern on it's own and I don't care if someone doesn't say and/or don't want others to say "dumb" and "rule of thumb" for that reason.

TLDR: problematic etymology is a valid concern but lack of it doesn't prove the word doesn't cause harm. Usage in real world is more important.

Anyone can say or do something stupid and they aren't being compared to anyone but themselves when they do.

It's the judgement of the speaker to say "stupid." Or funny, or annoying, or valid, invalid, offensive, etc. While you can say "I expected more of you so I call you stupid now," that's it. You expected.

It's a measure of intelligence that you are imposing on others. I mean...what if I just called you stupid for disagreeing with me or not understanding everything I think or believe from the few sentences I presented. More than unfair, it's bigoted. I'm relying on our culture's shared idea of what intelligence means and what it means to have little of it, to insult you. I'm not saying the insulting is the problem. You can say "fuck you go to hell." None of that is ableist. Picking the person's perceived skin color to insult them is racist. Picking their perceived gender is sexist. And picking the perceived intelligence is ableist.

I don't think there's such thing as "but they are stupid" or "it was dumb." That's just our chauvinism. People, their ideas and actions can... lack foresight, care, attention, kindness, strength or bravery, and so on. But when you say it lacks intelligence. I think it's...well I'm going in circles.

TLDR: You're invoking the ableist world we live in when you say "stupid" to give yourself pover someone that you're saying it to. Same idea as how "cracker" is just a joke "slur" because we don't live in a world where whites are oppressed as a race.

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[–] Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Not every pejorative is racist or ableist.

If you can't link the word to a disability and its etymology has never been used to refer to disabled people how is the word ableist? Stupid is not a judgement on a person's overall mental capacity it is a judgement on their actions or words in a situation. A "stupid person" is someone who consistently does or says things that they should know better than to do or say. Like how a drunk person has poor judgment, because they are in a "stupor."

Cracker isn't a slur either. It is class and ideologically based insult not a racial one. Crackers are poor people who uphold white supremacy wile getting little of the benefits. It was a self imposed title for Irish immigrants who drove slaves despite being non-white themselves at the time.

If a table is wobbly and doesn't have a flat top it is a bad table. If an idea isn't based on material realities and lacks logical consistency it is stupid. A person who's ideas constantly have those issues is not intellectually impaired but they are stupid. Stupidity can be cured.

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[–] soyaboya@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 4 months ago (1 child)

Not every pejorative is racist or ableist.

That was never a claim I made.

If you can't link the word to a disability and its etymology...

You didn't really understand my point that lack of a bad etymology doesn't make a word not bad so I won't repeat myself.

Cracker isn't a slur either.

Again, not my claim. I put slur in quotes and my whole point was that it carries no power in a white supremacist word. So again you're not really arguing against anything I said. These etymology lessons are great but irrelevant.

If an idea isn't based on material realities and lacks logical consistency it is stupid. A person who's ideas constantly have those issues is not intellectually impaired but they are stupid.

You can say this but you don't have any authority over language. In reality, people use stupid for anything. What I'm suggesting is to rethink what you really meant behind the mask of thoughtful and hasty labeling. Was it "uneducated?" Or "illogical" as you say, or simply "I disagree" or "I don't like this." Reminds me of "using I statements" lol.

Another close analogy (though obviously imperfect) I thought of that might aid in you seeing my perspective is how the word "gay" can be used to mean "lame" (I know this itself has ableist history but it's the best word for this purpose of explaining). Instead of calling everything gay and saying "well things and people are gay when x." Put that x part aside, maybe that alone is valid to criticize, but notice how it's insulting to label that with a word used to refer to marginalized minorities. I.e. gay people and "stupid" people.

Stupidity can be cured.

Therefore what? I'm not even arguing against this statement but asking for relevance. Using the race and gender examples again, gender and race are social constructs. They're fluid. You can also "cure" your gender as in gender affirming care. Does that make the oppressive construct something to cling to, uphold, and rely on?

I don't think I'm able to provide anything new here so if you still disagree and are interested, self reflection and organization of your beliefs and knowledge will be more helpful.

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[–] Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 4 months ago

You didn’t really understand my point that lack of a bad etymology doesn’t make a word not bad so I won’t repeat myself.

You didn't make a point. You made some weird individualist anarchist noises about it being "bigoted" to project expectations onto people.

You can say this but you don’t have any authority over language.

More anarchist noises.

In reality, people use stupid for anything.

Incorrect usage of a word doesn't change it's meaning.

You analogy is way off base. Did people using the word "gay" to mean bad change its meaning? no. What it did was entrench the idea that being gay was bad. There is no other meaning for the word stupid it only has the one meaning. You are implying that stupidity is not a bad thing. Stupidity is intellectual laziness. It is not a lack of ability. It is a lack of effort or carelessness that produces faulty ideas and actions.

Stupid people are not a minority or marginalized group. Everyone does something stupid from time to time. I know several people who are a bit slower than average but aren't chronicaly stupid. They recognize their deficiency in speed and make up for it with carefulness. There are also plenty of really "smart" people who are really stupid. Scott Bessent US Treasury Secretary is a wizard at developing financial weapons but he can't look at a camera without telling on himself. He is fucking stupid.

Therefore what?

Therefore it is not an ableist slur. Ableist slurs are words to dehumanize people and reduce them to nothing more than their disability. This is why you can say someone is autistic but calling them "R-----" is ablest.

Everyone is equally capable of being stupid and equally capable of stopping it. It is not dehumanizing to call someone stupid. It is a judgement of the quality of their intellectual work.

You are unable to provide anything new because you are just wrong. Stupid is not ableist. It is a judgement based on peoples actions not on their abilities.

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