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[-] symbolstumble@lemmy.zip 0 points 13 hours ago

I never said I was arguing, just sharing where I stand on an issue.

I came to you... What are you talking about? I replied with my thoughts.

"...you can't figure out why someone is talking back to you." I'm not sure where in this thread I responded in a way to make you feel that way, but if I was I am sorry. I will say that you have made it clear you don't appreciate conversation with those who disagree with you.

This last part honestly makes no sense to me. I'm pretty sure I'm not lying, but I guess you might have information about that which I'm not privy to.

I feel I've been pretty respectful throughout this conversation. You seem to be having some difficulty respecting others with differing opinions... I'm sorry that's so troubling. I hope you find peace.

[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 points 12 hours ago

I feel I’ve been pretty respectful throughout this conversation.

I wish to disabuse you of that notion. Every response has been condescending repetition of your apparently dogmatic opinions - and insistence upon your right to hold them, as if anyone challenged that. Conversations are supposed to pursue a mutual understanding of reality, instead of spitting conclusions at one another. You can't make declarations about all art with a sweep of your hand, and then flinch in confusion when the person you're talking at has a follow-up question.

You "don’t feel the need to convince you or anyone of anything," but boy howdy you sure keep yapping. And then cannot imagine why that's not the end of it.

Meanwhile, I've held the vain hope this interaction might be productive in some way. From the very start, I asked you: do words matter? And you clutched pearls as if the answer was obviously yes. But then ev-er-y sin-gle response, that one included, ends with useless 'agree to disagree' fluff, and some sign-off like you're just going to nope out, and then you keep coming back to do it again. I've made it crystal clear why I'm still trying. I for one give a shit about this topic, enough to constructively discuss it. Why the fuck are you still here if you're not even listening?

[-] symbolstumble@lemmy.zip 2 points 12 hours ago

I see what you mean. I have been pretty condescending and dismissive of your stance. That wasn't cool for me to do and for that I am sorry.

Can I ask, between our views, what might a shared understanding of reality look like?

[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 2 points 12 hours ago

Recognizing that no tool is immune to human expression. So even if a stick-figure single prompt isn't art, some weirdo pouring their time and energy into an iterative process should be.

Distinguishing capitalist implications of a technology vis-a-vis material impact on existing professions, versus people running some jumped-up chatbot and renderer on their own desktop for their own purposes.

[-] symbolstumble@lemmy.zip 1 points 12 hours ago

I see what you're saying, my issue with this is the product is (as I understand) no more than an amalgam of its inputs. I do understand the similarity to human artists, where one's art is building from reference (either directly/indirectly/cumulatively). The difference here for me is that current models, don't/can't comprehend the meaning behind the components of their construction. They also don't or aren't able to add any additional meaning to what they produce. I'm not sure that makes much sense. What I'm trying to communicate is more of a feeling behind the art, which is either really difficult to describe, or I lack the words. Maybe you can help with your own thoughts/corrections?

That second paragraph makes perfect sense, especially tying in to the first sentence of your first paragraph. I wonder if it might be possible to escape the necessity for human produced data for training? That would certainly alleviate a lot of my concerns with the tech, especially when talking local.

[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

Consider this image. It's full of blatant tells, like the bouncer becoming a real boy from the knees down, or the improbable stacking inside that trenchcoat. Yet it obviously conveys meaning in a clever way. You wouldn't commend whoever made it for their drawing skills, but the image transmits an idea from their brain to yours.

The model did not have to comprehend anything. That's the user's job. A person used the tool's ability to depict these visual elements, in order to communicate their own message.

If some guy spends days tweaking out the exact right combination of fifteen unforgivable fetishes, that amalgamation is his fault. You would not blame the computer for your immediate revulsion. It tried its best to draw a generic pretty lady in center frame. But that guy kept doodling a ball-gag onto Shrek until image-to-image got the leather strap right, and once he copy-pasted Frieren behind him, it just made her lighting match.

Neural networks are universal approximators, so you're always going to need human art to approximate human art. However, there are efforts to produce models using only public-domain, explicitly licensed, and/or bespoke examples. (Part of the 'do words matter' attitude is that several outspoken critics scoff at that anyway. 'Like that changes anything!' They'll complain about the source of the data, but when that's addressed, they don't actually care about the source of the data.)

Personally, though... I don't have a problem with using whatever's public. For properly published works, especially: so what if the chatbot read every book in the library? That's what libraries are for. And for images, the more they use, the less each one matters. If you show a billion drawings to an eight-gig model then every image contributes eight bytes. The word "contributes" is eleven.

this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2026
230 points (97.1% liked)

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