I see what you're saying, my issue with this is the product is (as I understand) no more than an amalgam of its inputs. I do understand the similarity to human artists, where one's art is building from reference (either directly/indirectly/cumulatively). The difference here for me is that current models, don't/can't comprehend the meaning behind the components of their construction. They also don't or aren't able to add any additional meaning to what they produce. I'm not sure that makes much sense. What I'm trying to communicate is more of a feeling behind the art, which is either really difficult to describe, or I lack the words. Maybe you can help with your own thoughts/corrections?

That second paragraph makes perfect sense, especially tying in to the first sentence of your first paragraph. I wonder if it might be possible to escape the necessity for human produced data for training? That would certainly alleviate a lot of my concerns with the tech, especially when talking local.

I see what you mean. I have been pretty condescending and dismissive of your stance. That wasn't cool for me to do and for that I am sorry.

Can I ask, between our views, what might a shared understanding of reality look like?

I never said I was arguing, just sharing where I stand on an issue.

I came to you... What are you talking about? I replied with my thoughts.

"...you can't figure out why someone is talking back to you." I'm not sure where in this thread I responded in a way to make you feel that way, but if I was I am sorry. I will say that you have made it clear you don't appreciate conversation with those who disagree with you.

This last part honestly makes no sense to me. I'm pretty sure I'm not lying, but I guess you might have information about that which I'm not privy to.

I feel I've been pretty respectful throughout this conversation. You seem to be having some difficulty respecting others with differing opinions... I'm sorry that's so troubling. I hope you find peace.

Huh?

I find the way you view those whose data built the systems you use pretty interesting. The distaste for artists is palpable. "...won't do psychic damage to someone who's DeviantArt posts were in the training data." How do you view art in general? Is there intrinsic value in the experience for which the piece represents, or is the value of a piece purely the numbers on the pricetag?

Look, I fundamentally do not agree with your thoughts on the matter. That will not change. I also have at no point forced you to respond, you have done that on your own.

I'm sorry, what? How am I a time vampire? This is an open forum. I should be free to share where I stand. Just as you are free to share your standpoint, and attempt to engage in debate. You may not always get what you want in this life, and that's ok too. It might be that there simply isn't much debate to be had. Your engagement with these "tools" is directly and actively harming those who provided the data that built them. That is a fact, not opinion. I'm not sure if you consider yourself an artist or a programmer or whatever, but let me ask you this: If you along with several other chatbot prompters were to line up your individual products, would a viewer be able to spot the difference? Would any difference there be specifically attributed to any individual chatbot prompter?

I'm not sure why you're so hell bent on changing my opinion on this subject. Could it be that you aren't so sure of your own opinion, so you're projecting that uncertainty outward? I don't feel the need to convince you or anyone of anything. I have simply been sharing where I stand on the subject. I think I should be free to do so without the expectation that I engage wholeheartedly in someone's desire for debate.

I don't see the contradiction. I do see that there is a fundamental divide between what you and I consider art. As I alluded to in my previous reply, art is the journey. That is my personal take after many years of engaging with many artistic pursuits. If you don't like my opinion, based on my subjective experience as an artist... I don't really know what else to say to you. As I keep saying, feel free to hold and exercise you own opinion, based on your own experience.

Never once implied that the meaning of art is simple, or stems only from one area of human experience. What I said is that without struggle, it is meaningless. That isn't to say art is always a struggle, not even close, it certainly gets easier as you hone your craft, whatever that may be. But it is from the struggle against each challenge along the way that the artist grows more resilient, more passionate; it is through that struggle that their personal flair takes shape. And unless you quit, there will always be some new challenge to overcome. Life imitates art or whatever.. The difference between advancement in tools throughout history is that it never once took the doing part out of the process of the art, or stripped the artist of their agency with what is to be done after the doing of the art is finished. A chatbot prompter is not creating anything, instead they are paying a company to proliferate the continued theft of actual artists. True creatives aren't going anywhere. We do what we do because we love the doing. Destination is not everything, it never has been, and for some (I'd wager most) it is the least enjoyable part of the process. Thank you for sharing your opinion, and thank you for entertaining mine.

I don't see that as art, no. I am not the arbiter of universal objective truth though, so feel free to form and exercise your own opinion. Godspeed.

What did I say in my response that made you feel we were in "words-don't-matter" territory? I shared my opinion on what I personally think about the meaning of artistic expression, with human experience being a vital component. You are free to hold your own opinion, and to share it, and act in whatever way you like, so long as you aren't harming others.

Those using the model to do what they haven't learned to do are ensuring they never learn to do the thing. Art is a representation of human experience, without the struggle, without challenges, the expression is meaningless.