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Soooo...Caesarism and Bonapartism and...uhhhh (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 4 months ago by King_Simp@lemmygrad.ml to c/genzhou@lemmygrad.ml
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Basically, I was reading Gramsci's work again and reread his thing on caesarism/bonapartism. He places Julius Caesar and Bonaparte the actually competent as progressive caesarist/bonapartist, and then places Napoleon the stupid and...Bismark(?) as regressive caesarist/bonapartists.

If I'm understanding him correctly, the idea is that two forces, progressive classes (such as the proletariat now and Bourgeoisie then) and regressive classes (landowners then and the Bourgeoisie now) essentially don't have the ability to overthrow each other or to end the conflict, so a Bonapartist enters the scene and gives the slight nudge needed to either side to tip the balance and resolve the conflict.

I...do have a couple questions I can't figure out myself.

1.Did Caesar succeed or fail? What were the progressive classes at the time? The small landowners? The proletarii? Did the roman economic system change between before he came to power and after he came to power? If he did fail, what would have success look like? How did the roman class system survive for several hundred years after him, if the class system didn't change?

2.Did Napoleon help reestablish the Bourgeois dictatorship in France over the Feudal manoralists, or did he simply "solidify" the victory after taking control from the thermidorians? Would it have mattered if he did or did not?

3.Bismark? I don't really get this one.

(P.S, is Putin a modern bonapartist or no? If so, reactionary or progressive?)

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[-] Idliketothinkimsmart@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Did Caesar succeed or fail? What were the progressive classes at the time? The small landowners? The proletarii? Did the roman economic system change between before he came to power and after he came to power? If he did fail, what would have success look like? How did the roman class system survive for several hundred years after him, if the class system didn’t change?

https://ia600501.us.archive.org/19/items/the-assassination-of-julius-caesar-a-peoples-history-of-ancient-rome_202310/The%20Assassination%20of%20Julius%20Caesar%3A%20A%20People%27s%20History%20of%20Ancient%20Rome.pdf

^Parenti

I guess Caesar failed in that he didn't change Rome into a more democratic system, but that was the limitation of working within the system. Proletarii, veterans, small landowners, freed slaves were amongst some of the forces on Caesar's side. Caesar was able to get in a number of reforms like land distribution, funding public works, taxing the rich, tenant relief, etc. Caesar was a reformist, albeit a good one (subjective). Ol boy just flew too close to the sun, and the senate assassinated because he was eroding their power.

[-] King_Simp@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 4 months ago

Mm, right. I think my actual question was "what was the primary contradiction?" [Not your fault that you answered what you did obviously, I just couldn't remember the term. Sorry]. Obviously there were many progressive classes, but what was the main contradiction at the time? (Similar to how you had the contradiction between the landowners and Bourgeoisie during the Feudal periods. While there was also a progressive proletariat/proto-proletariat, the primary contradiction was between the landowners and Bourgeoisie). If Caesar's bonapartism had succeeded and power was transferred from the senate to the people, what economic system would have resulted? Would it have been medieval feudalism, or maybe closer to the Chinese system?

Or was he just a reformist who wouldn't gave actually changed the base structure of Roman society, compared to say Gaius Marius?

this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2025
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