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‘There were no warning signs’: what happens when your partner falls into the ‘manosphere’? (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 4 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.

“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.

“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What makes you the ultimate authority

Where do you get the power to decide

What makes your opinion about it more valid

I don't need to be or decide it and it's not my opinion: the language community is the ultimate authority of their language. Their collective choices establish observable conventions. Linguistics is dedicated to that approach.

What makes your opinion about it more valid than those of others?

Have you considered that the same word can make two different people feel two different ways?

Subjectivist fallacy: your opinion/feelings don't make claims true. Up doesn't mean down because someone feels that way.

Language has conventional, established meanings.

Another comment fully argues, explains, & criticizes your argument, which I won't bother to rehash here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Way to absolutely miss the point.

I don’t need to be or decide it and it’s not my opinion: the language community is the ultimate authority of their language. Their collective choices establish observable conventions. Linguistics is dedicated to that approach.

A not-insignificant amount of women think using the term "female" is derogatory. Women who feel that way are part of the "language community." You're talking like we're some outsider group, whose use of English is less valid than yours.

Language has conventional, established meanings.

Language is alive - it evolves, it changes. As well, English famously doesn't have an established body to define meanings. Rather, English words are based on common usage. Women commonly experience the usage of "female" in a derogatory sense. We didn't designate it this way - all we're doing is pointing out that it's used in this way. Just because you don't feel a derogatory sense from a given word doesn't mean those that experience it that way are wrong.

If you had gone out to research the usage of "female," including how people perceive it in different contexts, you'd see just how many anglophones disagree with you. But those people would probably, by and large, be those who've experienced that word in a derogatory way - in other words, they'd be women. So how about we stop acting like this is a semantics issue and get to the point you're really saying, which is that women's experiences and opinions are somehow worth less than yours.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

A not-insignificant amount of women think using the term “female” is derogatory.

many anglophones disagree with you

And a nonsignificant amount don't. That doesn't establish a generally accepted convention of the language community.

Language is alive - it evolves, it changes.

True: still not a conventional definition per earlier remarks.

English words are based on common usage.

Exactly: convention.

Women who feel that way are part of the “language community.”

Incomplete evidence or composition fallacy.

whose use of English is less valid than yours.

Nope, not implied & it's not about my use, either. It's about observed, established convention: see earlier remarks (notice a pattern yet?). The lack of consistency across usages indicates that derogatory meaning is not a convention.

all we’re doing is pointing out that it’s used in this way

And plenty of innocuous instances exist as discussed before. That doesn't make a word itself derogatory:

If a word requires a particular message to be derogatory, then the message (not the word) is responsible.

I don't deny derogatory instances. Do you deny nonderogatory instances?

Just because you don’t feel a derogatory sense from a given word doesn’t mean those that experience it that way are wrong.

It's simple overgeneralization: people can draw wrong conclusions about their observations, especially if they disregard conflicting observations (incomplete evidence fallacy). Observing derogatory uses while disregarding nonderogatory uses doesn't justify any conclusion about a word's conventional definition.

It varies by message, so it's not the word itself.

get to the point you’re really saying, which is that women’s experiences and opinions are somehow worth less than yours.

Straw man fallacy. Not implied.

Maybe you follow the logic I wrote, but the conclusion still feels wrong, so you're unwilling to accept it. Let's unpack that feeling.

The conventional definition that the noun "female" isn't derogatory feels wrong, because sexists use that word in an ugly way, and opposing that would feel relieving. What can we do with these feelings? Here's one idea: even though it's not generally accepted, let's make the noun "female" an official dirty word. Let's accept the premise of their sexism that "females" are lesser and take it further than they did: spread it to the broader community, normalize it into the official language so everyone accepts the noun for an entire gender is a dirty word. The sexists might even be grateful.

Would that feel better? If so, then extraterrestrial anthropologists studying you might reasonably conclude you're a misogynist. Otherwise, you might want to tell your feelings "Fuck you, feelings! Stop making me do stupid shit!". Alternatively, understand your feelings & guide them better.