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[–] 124 points 1 year ago (64 children)

Unfortunately this runs into constitutional problems. While the spineless subhuman creatures in congress and the supreme court seem to have no problem with Trump and his administration ignoring the constitution I fully expect them to come down hard on any state that does so (at least in cases that go against Trump and his policies).

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  • [–] 102 points 1 year ago (40 children)

    Don't have to care about being unconstitutional if you're not part of the union.

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  • [–] 54 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    That's great in theory but just as unrealistic in practice for California as it always has been for Texas. The single biggest stumbling block for any state to leave the union for any reason is the military. Most of the other problems can be resolved within the borders of the state, but the disposition of existing and theoretical new military hardware, personnel, and bases will always be a sticking point even assuming the federal government and the other states are willing to let them leave.

    Any attempt to leave the US that has any hope of succeeding would be a very long and protracted process that would make Brexit look breakneck in comparison. We're talking at least a couple decades at a minimum.

    It's either that or another civil war and that has so many variables I'm not sure anyone has any hope of predicting how that would turn out.

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  • [+] 54 points 1 year ago (14 children)
  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Economics in general. California is responsible for a significant chunk of the entire US GDP as well as being one of the primary shipping hubs. My point was more along the lines that these other problems are tractable, you could for instance negotiate trade deals between the rest of the US and California. The military on the other hand is a much tougher problem akin to unscrambling an egg. There's no obvious way to disentangle California from the greater US military.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Any military option automatically removes any economic benefits that could have been possible in peace time. As soon as any conflict appears, everyone will spend more money on fighting, defending that in saving or creating profit. No matter who may "win", everyone will lose and it would take decades to recover from it.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That's how you get invaded by the military

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    Thankfully CA can fund its.own military once we no longer need to send charity to all the red states with dirt for an economy. Actually, our police forces in the state routinely spend more money than entire foreign militaries. I'm sure with a couple trade deals and strategic defense pacts that California can easily become it's own country.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    California's food industry relies heavily on water from out of state, if those rivers dried up because flow got restricted to a trickle, it would be bad for their industry. None of this would happen without violent conflict though. Remember when the north burned the south to the ground? That is our historical precedent for how to respond to secession.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I could see Oregon and Washington State throwing in with Cali, giving all of them a direct line to nice fresh Canadian Rocky BC Springs because we up here in Canada would be an instant ally of any states that broke off.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    You cannot get water from southern Oregon into California by any practical manner. Same as the person you replied to, the Central Valley and coastal regions are inaccessible except from the Sierra Nevada or Colorado River.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    That's the problem .... if you are damned if you stay and damned if you leave .... everyone starts weighing the options of either situation

    The choices for staying become ... stay and beholden to federal government that ties your hands, manipulates your economy and uses you for their benefit while never allowing you to do what your people want for themselves

    or ... secede and fight a political, economic and possibly even a military conflict to decide your own future

    either options is terrible in the long run (if things continue as they are) but staying means things stay indefinitely terrible while seceding gives a higher chance of political autonomy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    The single biggest stumbling block for any state to leave the union for any reason is the military. Most of the other problems can be resolved within the borders of the state, but the disposition of existing and theoretical new military hardware, personnel, and bases will always be a sticking point even assuming the federal government and the other states are willing to let them leave.

    I mean it's California. At that point just get a few neighboring states on board, take all the military hardware and shit and be like "Wanna go to war over it?".

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Leaving the union? Yep you guessed it, unconstitutional. Secession would absolutely cause a war

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, if things were so bad that you were considering secession you might as well cut to the chase and just try to overthrow the US government because they would absolutely go after you hard

    P.s. for any government officials who read the above comment, I'm not advocating for overthrow of your stupid little clubhouse, I'm pointing out why secession is a bad idea. Also, quit wasting my tax dollars looking at stupid shit.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Would you rather be complicit with fascism or fight for something better?

    Also, you're overlooking how much CA funds the rest of the nation. Flyover states do not function without funding from states like CA and TX. Take the west coast from the rest of the US and all that's left struggles to qualify as third world lmfao

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Republicans would absolutely love it if the most populous state that consistently sends huge numbers of Democratic representatives to DC was out of the picture. You think Democrats can’t do shit now, see what happens when you lose 40+ democrats from the House.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Won't matter to me. We'll leave to US to the Republicans.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Yeah, I’m not cool with leaving my friends and family to just die because they don’t live in CA.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That wouldn't be happening because they don't live in CA, it would happen because of Trump who exists in this role whether CA leaves the union or not.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    If the union doesn't provide any benefits and only costs money and prevents your state from functioning as well as it could and the union only makes solutions harder to solve ...... why stay in the union?

    States stay together because of mutual benefit, not because of a document or promises.

    And you could force a state to stay in a union by force but the cost of doing that far outweighs the benefits of a peaceful union.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Don't forget they're Democrats.

    When the courts rule against them they'll just meekly comply.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Is your state governor doing anything to oppose Trump?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If memory serves right the person you are responding to is probably British. Or at the very least I don't think they are American, so don't take much of what they have to say particularly seriously.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    See my other response to peregrin5 but in addition you're assuming rational actors all around. Actual reality is far more messy with many of those involved making decisions based more on feelings than any in depth reasoning. States stay together because there's no obvious alternative. There's no mechanism for a state to leave the union and doing so requires solving many problems that have no obvious answers.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    They could implement this by just not charging the duties at the ports in California and see who blinks first.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The Trump administration has demonstrated that the constitution doesn't really matter. Why keep pretending like this is some sort of sacred immutable text? The spell has been lifted.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    yes, without any shared understanding around whether we enforce all laws or just some, law books are just reems of scratchy toilet paper. So are everyones holy books, and any international agreements we have.

    Trump doesnt care about laws and law enforcement has openly hated the public for a long time. Their oaths to serve the law are a vanity that they jettison whenever its convenient.

    And Biden/Harris violating god knows how many genocide and arms laws for zionist $ and then losing the election and support across every voting demographic didnt help matters. I wish I could go back in time to the day Obama picked Biden as his running mate and shake Obama until he picks someone else.

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  • Let the feds try to enforce it then. Texas immigration officers basically kicked the feds out when they started doing federally illegal shit, the federal government is barely held together these days. Force them to do something about it. If the flow of money between California and the US stops, California is the big winner so they have all the leverage in the world.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The article states California is negotiating with other countries to exclude California from those countries' retaliatory tarrifs on US goods.

    There's nothing the federal government can do about that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That's not actually true, there are things the federal government can do. First it's a grey area legally. The constitution says trade deals (and trade outside the borders of any one state) is the domain of the federal government.

    The argument in this case would be "Is this a trade deal?". It certainly sounds like a deal, and it involves trade, but the key technicality would be if California is giving anything in return. Are they promising anything in exchange for no or reduced tariffs or are they just asking with the promise of nothing in return? If they're not promising anything there's a pretty good chance they could win the argument that this isn't a trade deal and therefore the federal government has no legal basis to intervene (although it's worth pointing out that the current administration hasn't particularly let legality influence their actions).

    On the other hand if California is promising something in return there's a decent chance the federal government could successfully argue that that meets the definition of a trade deal and is therefore prohibited. This also raises the question of why another country would agree to remove tariffs from California if they aren't promising anything in return. The only answer I can come up with is to figuratively (and maybe literally at the same time) give the middle finger to Trump.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    It looks like they're just going to lobby trading partners to please direct (actual) retaliatory sanctions towards products from red states, not their state. In general, I like that idea. But maybe now any excemptions for blue state products should come with a promise to actually fight the incipient fascist government...

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