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Germany's Obsession With Defending Israel and Criminalizing Speech Aided AfD's Rise
(open.substack.com)
this post was submitted on 23 Feb 2025
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Duh! I've been saying this on here and getting called a Nazi as a result. First, censorsing & criminalizing free speech is fasscist behavior. But it is also causes those groups to grow.
Free speech gave the USA Trump.
I rather like that in Germany it's a crime to deny the Holocaust. The problem is that our politicians are too cowardly to stand up towards Israel and to stupid to realize the problem with the Holocaust isn't that jews were the main target, but rather that it happened at all.
exactly, free speech fundamentalism just allows freedom to abuse anyone and lie about anything
what's happening in germany is the same playbook as in the US. use wedge issues like immigration, palestine and economic hardship to split the left and support the far right in social media spam
at least in germany you can vote constructively for a variety of parties that can create a government that effectively excludes the far right
Not at all. The things that Trump says are acceptable to the ruling class of America. Even without free speech (which the US doesn't actually have), Trump would never be the victim of censorship laws.
Are you talking about Germany's ban on fascist symbols and Holocaust denial?
If so, calling that “fascist behavior” is the dumbest shit I've heard in a while. Seriously below “what happened to the tolerant left” level.
I believe he’s talking about Germany not allowing critique on war crimes and mass murder if perpetrated by Israel.
And that is not on a criminal level but instead on a political.
It is legally allowed to critique Israel.
And that is not on a criminal level but instead on a political.
It is legally perfectly allowed to critique Israel. So the OP still would be wrong.
Actually are there are legal restrictions on critising Israel in Germany.
Really? I can't remember that anybody got legally punished for criticizing Israel, but I might just not remember it. Can you provide sources for your claim?
You're literally in the comment section for an article about it
No, you either didn't read the article or didn't understand it. The article doesn't mention a single instance of what you claim.
The article is about political pressure, as I said, about accusing Israel critics of other crimes and thereby trying to shut them down. But criticizing Israel is not illegal. And that is the same as happened in USA, where protest where shut down and accused of other crimes to stop them.
Yes, criticising Israel is illegal as you have yourself just stated. The exact legal mechanism which the state uses does not change this.
Actually it does. If you're just going to straight up deny verifiable reality, what's the point in talking to you?
What? I specifically checked the article before I posted the comment. Please quote the part you are talking about.
So, rather than wasting time arguing with you when you're just going to actively deny verifiable reality, I'm just going to say "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." (because I don't live in Germany, where it's illegal.)
Again, I'm not denying verifiable reality, you are not reading correctly.
The article mentions the sentence in the following paragraphs
-> not illegal, just some idiots calling for it to be illegal
Here, just for you, from me who lives in Germany, where it's not illegal to say it: "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."
And I mean it, because what Israel is doing is simply a genocide. But that doesn't mean you can just change reality to what you think it is.
And honestly, if you read and understood the article, it shouldn't take much time to search for the terms you know and then copy that into a comment to prove me wrong.
... Because that is exactly what I did with this comment, proving you wrong that the sentence you wrote is in fact not illegal.
Edit: after checking Wikipedia, I have to partially retract my statement about the legality. The ministry of inner affairs ordered Hamas as terrorist organization and the saying as its slogan and forbid it. However, multiple courts have already overturned that decision and stated that the saying is not illegal in itself, only if its meant as direct support for Hamas. So I was wrong, but the Wikipedia article explained it much better than the posted article.
Yeah, I'm not reading all that from someone who is, as we established, denying reality
My brother/sister/comrade in christ, read the article this comments section is centered around.
That's wrong. You can criticise Israel all day long, but you may maneuver yourself into problems if you mix up the Jews (as in anti-semitic rhetoric) with the the state of Israel.
The article itself proves you wrong, but you already knew that
No censorship of speech has always been liberal. /s Also its kidna funny how eastern european countries now have stronger foundations of liberal democracy than germany, since statements like "from the river to the sea" are not criminalized as antisemitic.
For something to be “criminalized”, it needs to be criminal. Antisemitism isn't a crime in Germany, so branding something as such might be propaganda but has no legal consequences.
Ah sorry I believe that in Germany they call it incitement to hate or something like that, which is criminal.
edit: from a very quick search I found this http://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/8/6/german-court-fines-woman-for-from-the-river-to-the-sea-chant which meand that by this judicature it is directly criminal. Also this source https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1699528989-berlin-criminalizes-slogan-from-the-river-to-the-sea-palestine-will-be-free. But here I dont know how reliable this source is
They've went further than that & now it is criticism of Israel as well. Moreso, despite those things representing a dark history, if someone cosplays as a Nazi or thinks Hitler didn't murder 6 million, or whatever number they are at now, as long as they aren't there being violent (which is already criminal) then arresting them because of thought crimes is fascist behavior. The censorship as well has only emboldened those ideas. When you lock people up for speaking about something then those ideas grow like cancer. People will believe they are legitimate ideas that the government is covering up. Don't believe me or whatever, but don't be surprised when you create a monster.
No, criticizing Israel is certainly 100% not illegal, what are you talking about. Being pro-Palestine isn't illegal.
The only thing that's even tangentially related and therefore might have been what you heard and misinterpreted is that Hamas flags have been added to the list of anti-constitutional banned symbols in Germany, so those are illegal. But clearly support for Hamas ≠ “criticizing Israel” lol
Hahahahaha no. It's not “thought crimes” when you explicitly say through symbols: “I want Jews, disabled people, leftists, and traveling folk to be genozided”. Because that's what that is. It's not a thought when you wear it or carry it around.
The US “free speech absolutist” Musk and his hypocritical friends have gotten into your mind. Preventing intolerance isn't intolerance in itself.
Okay but the facts disagree with you:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/world/europe/germany-pro-palestinian-protests.html
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/28/europe/europe-germany-hamas-crackdown-free-speech-intl/index.html
Right, just like posting a picture of Luigi from Super Mario Bros. now when talking about the oligarchy means you intend to kill CEOs and so you should be arrested whenever you display an image of Luigi. Publicly denying the Holocaust in Germany is a crime, that is how thought crimes work.
Even wearing a swastika or flying a Nazi flag doesn't mean you're a murderer or that you intend to murder people. Many modern Nazis don't believe that 6 million Jews were murdered and that those were facts made up by powerful Jews, so to claim they intend to murder more people because of it is ridiculous when they don't believe the murder happened. In fact, what I've seen recently online is a prevalence of people (what I am hopeful are mostly bot accounts) advocating for murdering & being violent against those who appear to be wearing Nazi symbolism or using some Nazi hand gesture, but who are being non-violent.
Everyone, even you has the potential to become violent. That doesn't mean people should attack you because you have potential to become violent. That is not how free speech works and is fascist behavior.
I get it, giving the government the ability to randomly shift the boundaries of what's considered a hate symbol can backfire if the government becomes fashy. We can see that in the US right now where they twist everything they can to make things happen that they want to happen, with no regard for process and how tools were supposed to be used.
But that's historically not what happened with paragraph 86a, and I don't see it happening without AfD coming into power. I might eat my words some day, but precedent has held strong with that one.
If you support Nazis then you literally support a party that wants to exterminate everyone else.
Hate speech isn't covered under any free speech laws i don't think.