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The admin of sh.itjust.works has been approached but as of yet has failed to reply to concerned Lemmy users. I’m glad Beehaw admins look out for us by cutting off instances that host communities like this.
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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2023
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Relaxed section for discussion and debate that doesn't fit anywhere else. Whether it's advice, how your week is going, a link that's at the back of your mind, or something like that, it can likely go here.
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I see they deleted it. I wonder what is the best way to deal with these groups spreading this hateful messaging. If organizations and people keep deleting and censoring them, doesn't that just further radicalize them?
Their whole movement revolves around there being a conspiracy against what they are saying. When they get censored it feeds into their confirmation bias and further affirms their viewpoint thus making them think that they need to take more aggressive aka terrorist action.
While I know it's an unpopular opinion, I think groups like this are better dealt with engagement and education. The censoring and ridicule being thrown around further polarizes places like the US even further than they are.
If we keep censoring groups I can't imagine anything good coming from it. Their hate will just get stronger and more justified in their eyes.
I appreciate the recommendation on the reading. I would like to learn more regarding the argument.
I will need to see how or if the author confronts the variables between German and other cultures. At least for America, people are very individualistic. That's why organizing for a common cause or social movement is quite difficult in the US.
As for the thoughts on censorship/deletion/blocking whatever you call it coming from government or private entity, we can look at the War on Drugs. For decades the government and organizations have tried to stop drug use. It hasn't been effective.
Another analogy is the entertainment industry's war against digital piracy. They have used an international effort that included so many DMCA orders but yet piracy still exists after decades of attempts.
In both the case of drugs and piracy, those who advocate for those are more strongly motivated when pursued or hindered by organization, companies or other organizations attempts.
Well we don't necessarily have to agree. We all have our own biases.
You and I may view drugs or piracy in a more favorable light therefore we are biased against hateful speech promoted by Donald Trump and his followers. However, to them, they don't view their speech as hateful but may view drugs or piracy as harmful and must be banned/censored.
A drug user or person who engages in piracy will always say "what I am doing is not a crime, look at all these other things that are horrible!". That's because they are biased in favor of their actions. Those who spread hate speech have the same bias.
That is where the similarity exists: How the individuals view their actions. In all of these cases, the individuals will respond the same to external actions to hinder or repress their actions.
Hateful speech does no good for society and only brings harm. However, I believe the response to hate speech is more nuanced than "ban it/block it/delete it".
On a totally different note, I love your Seinfeld reference in your profile. I take it you are an importer/exporter?
Germany has very strong anti-hate laws and far fewer bigots than the US. That seems to prove that aggressive rejection of hate stops it's spread instead of strengthening it.
The far-right party AfD polls at around 20% at the moment. There are (too) many bigots in Germany as well.
Speaches from on of their leaders Bernd Höcke are very close to speaches from the Nazi time. So Germany is not a very good example to prove your point.
to be fair, at least a few additional data points would be required to call that proven. german culture has a particular history which i think must contribute to the ability for this to work.
Exactly!
An analogy that works for this is the War on Drugs and the entertainment industry's attempts to block media piracy.
Both movements attempt to stomp out drugs and piracy but have been ineffective. Actually, it just makes those who support piracy and drugs try better and different methods of distribution or organization.
theres lots of examples where something was illegalised and subsequently fell in popularity and usage massively
They can, and do, have their own instances.
I love this, disproves the whole "censorship" argument, if they were truly censored, they wouldn't even be allowed web hosting for instances.
They shouldn't be allowed to spread hateful messaging against others that leads to attacks
These people don't know what real censorship looks like.
You're right. They really don't. Censorship is done at the gov level, yet private companies or organizationns, that they defend, ban them and suddenly it's censorship. :/
conservatives tend to believe that people not hosting their bullshit is a free speech violation, and that disagreeing with their bullshit is even more of a free speech violation
thats what happens when you dont hold free speech as any sort of ideal, and just like it as a tool for your team to beat the other team with
Yeah
So I didn't make an account here for precisely this reason, I'm not really at risk of being targeted or triggered, so at the 'edge' of your community I can at least try to knock down some of the BS.
I have a feeling this is where the 'eternal vigilance' is going to be needed.
The trolls are gonna troll.
Just keeping them out of your discussions may reduce the noise, but it doesn't stop them from conglomerating on the platform. Pointing out where they come to play feels like the only way to separate the good actors from bad at an instance level so they don't wander in.