this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2025
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Mildly Infuriating
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Maybe it's your job to avoid patronizing places that don't pay their employees enough though?
No, it's not, however as a near-minimum wage worker myself, it is also not my job to cover a massive corporation's lack of proper budgeting...
If you keep patronizing such businesses, why would they ever do that? They know they don't have to in order to get your money. And it is the same with your own near-minimum wage job. You are working against your own best interests. Nothing will change while people are willing to give their money to companies that don't pay their workers a fair wage.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against tipping if the person did a good job, but a company trying to guilt trip me into giving them a mandatory tip? Nah, that's bullshit, it's essentially "Oh, we can't pay our employees enough, would you mind helping 🥺". Outta here with that.
Right,so don't use those businesses. You give them no reason to do anything differently.
All you are doing is helping to maintain the status quo.
I think it is the case of "you think in the right direction, but you don't do it all the way, so now I'm gonna attack you over this until you stop doing anything".
Not paying tips is a good start.
Can you give an example of that ever working? Because boycotts sure as fuck work.
Rewarding the employer for underpaying the employees is not, in any way, the right direction, though? Not tipping is just telling the employees "I don't care if you get paid, so long as I get what I want"
How? Those people just aren't going to get the money. Its not like the company is going to pay them extra because you didnt tip. Theyve already decided that the wage will be low Your logic doesn't really make sense
There is a minimum amount of total money the employee could make before they'd go and work somewhere else instead. So if, hypothetically, everyone in a country where tipping is common even for non-exceptional service just stopped paying tips, hospitality employers would be forced to pay more to stay competitive with other non-customer-facing industries.
Of course, a drastic shock to the economy like that would probably cause a lot of upheaval, as some employers struggle to accept the new norm.
However, the same thing would work even if the change was slower - e.g. if 5% of people didn't tip, and did it very obviously and vocally, and then the practice spread as it reached 10% and so on.
Obviously it sucks for the employees who get hit by the first few non-tippers, but over the long term it would be for the better for worker rights. So I could absolutely see it working.
That said, I say this from a country where tipping is not the norm (except maybe the occasional 'keep the change' for exceptional service), and the law and expectation is that the most prominent displayed price is the total price you pay - and people react very negatively towards businesses seen as trying to bring in American style tipping culture.
I would not, that's... what I'm trying to imply here... Yeah, businesses who don't pay their employees enough bad.
You don't get it, I think? The point is to get the workers to quit or protest because they don't get paid enough, so that the place can increase the prices instead so they can pay their workers. If the place is still providing a nice service or good food or whatever it may be, you don't want it to go out of business. Just make a worker-positive change.
It takes everyone to fix these issues. It is not a one-sided job. Every time you give these establishments money, you help them.
And there is no shortage of replacement waiters out there for the ones who quit.
I'm trying to help the establishment, by changing their ways. Not by bankrupting them. And if they just keep changing waiters, surely the quality of service will go down and Darwin takes care of the rest.
Can you give an example of this "I give them money and expect their employees to quit unless they get paid better" strategy working in the past?
Don't you think people boycott for a reason?
I can not. Can you give an example of boycotting a business causing that business to raise prices to pay their employees a living wage? If so, I guess let's go with your thing.
Not Squid, but here's one
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/workers-united-the-delano-grape-strike-and-boycott.htm
Cool, I guess that's the only solution then. 🤷♂️
Most people won't quit, especially in the US from what I know. If they are already underpaid, how can they quit? And if pretty much every place treats waiters the same, what choice do they have?
They won't have a choice but to quit if we all boycott the business either.
I absolutely will pick the no-tips place given a choice, but I take issue with that wording. Basically every business pays as little as possible, by design.
I would happily pay more for my meal if it meant I didn't have to tip. The benefit we get from not tipping is marginal compared to the benefit restaurant owners get by not paying living wage. Not to mention it's added stress to the actual people doing the work because they don't even get the guarantee of a decent paycheck.
And there is a choice, you chose to perpetuate the system that grossly exploits the laborer, I choose to have minimal participation in such a system. Want to take a guess which of the two actually has a chance to fix the system?
But you are defending the system. You're literally saying if you end up in a place that expects tipping then you should tip. What if you're going out with a group and that group decides to go somewhere that expects tipping? Are you supposed to remove yourself from the group so you wouldn't go into a place like that?
You can't take this black and white stance where if you end up participating in this system you also have to perpetuate that system. Making the customer feel like they're responsible for the livelihood of the staff is how this tipping culture is kept alive and that is exactly what you're doing right now. You're trying to claim we are responsible for their livelihood simply because we stepped into the restaurant and ate.
Show me exactly where I defended the system. Show me a single line.
I said if you don’t want tipping to continue, you can’t support restaurants that tip. If you go to a restaurant that expects tips and you don’t tip, you are keeping them in business while screwing over the person working. It is the worst of all worlds. In that scenario you are perpetuating the system by participating in it. It’s a choice.
Trying to guilt people into tipping
Literally telling people to tip.
If nobody tipped at those restaurants nobody would work at those restaurants and those restaurants would have to either start paying livable wage or go out of business.
And I agree. I avoid going to such restaurants if given a chance. But if circumstances require going to such a restaurant do you really think tipping at that restaurant is less beneficial to the restaurant than not tipping?
If circumstances force me to participate then I should go all the way? Is that what you're saying? So if a vegan orders a plate that happens to have meat in it then the vegan should eat that meat? After-all they've already participated by ordering something with meat.
If
If
If.
I said “if” several times. The point is if you don’t want to tip or support tipping culture, don’t go somewhere that expects tips. So I’m saying “do not go somewhere that expects tips,” because I am against tipping as a system. I have been clear this entire time. I am not guilting people into tipping, I’m saying do not go somewhere where you’re supposed to tip and not tip or you’re even worse than the problem. If you do, you need to tip. But don’t go if you care about ending tipping culture.
I know you understand exactly what I am saying. Why are you so fragrantly misrepresenting me? Stop lying.
"If you don't want to support tipping culture, don't go somewhere that expects tips. But if you do happen to go somewhere that expects tips (regardless of how you end up going there) you absolutely must support tipping culture".
Now let me take your point into absurdity.
"If you don't want to support gun violence you shouldn't own a gun. But if you happen to own a gun you should do a mass shooting."
That's how your argument comes across to me. I have no issue with the first part of your argument, I do that. But I have an issue with the second part because that is defending tipping culture.
Stop lying and misrepresenting me. I am explicitly against tipping culture. Can you not read? Do I need to break this down further? Or can you stop with this disingenuous bullshit?
Which part of that statement was lying or misrepresenting? They're your words. The first part.
And the second part.
What are you not getting?
If you go somewhere that expects tips and don’t tip, you are still feeding the machine. You are still supporting the establishment. They have lost zero dollars because of you. The only person you screwed over is the person working there. So the only moral thing to do if you insist on going to a place that expects tips is to still tip. Otherwise you’re just a piece of shit.
You cannot say “I am against tipping culture“ simply because you refuse to tip. You cannot be a patron at these establishments. Full Stop. What do you not fucking get? Don’t support these places. Do not go there. Going there and refusing to tip is only hurting workers while still giving the business money.
I am not explaining this again. Stop telling me what I think. I am explicitly telling you. Stop lying. Stop misrepresenting me.
What are you not getting? Everything you've just brought up are things I've already covered. I'm done talking to a wall. Either read what I've said or stfu.
Suck my ass :)
"As little as possible" and "not enough" are two different things.
I suppose, but it's really hard to separate. You have to pick a cutoff, which in the face of a world full of intangible wealth and costs is hard, and then if you come out with a number that's too high you basically have nowhere you can shop.
There's select industries that are super shitty, and I avoid those, but paying minimum wage for unskilled labour is a normal industry. (And, ironically, a lot of the fair-ethical-organic type businesses are super shitty themselves, because everyone wants to get paid extra and some will do horrible things to make that happen)
You're saying this like it's necessary to eat in restaurants with waiters. It isn't. It's a luxury.
Wait, where are you? I thought I recognised you from .ca, but it sounds like you might be thinking of the US system where they can pay nothing except tips. In my province you earn at least minimum wage as a waiter, and tips.
If I were to just straight up refuse to eat from restaurants under any circumstance, I'd be heavily incurring those intangible costs I mentioned, because it's an expected social thing. That being said, I might consider it if I was in the US, but I'm not.
Also, tips have expanded well beyond servers, but that's kind of beside the point.
Well you thought wrong. I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived there until about two weeks ago when we fled.
And in my 47 years in America, I was never in a situation where I couldn't say, "no thanks" if someone invited me to a restaurant. And who invites you to restaurants and makes you pay?
Like, most people. Unless they offer, it's not culturally expected to be a gift. "No, I won't discuss this over coffee"/"no, we can't have the meeting at a restaurant" would go over like a wet fart, and explaining that it's because of minimum wage workers wouldn't make it much better. (FWIW I'm also poor enough that's a pretty big expense, but middle and upper class people hate being reminded people like me exist)
Congratulations on getting out. Best of luck wherever you are now.
Certainly not lol, what a ridiculous thing to say