this post was submitted on 02 Jan 2025
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menby
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A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.
Detoxing masculinity since 1990!
You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.
Guidelines:
- Questions over blame
- Humility over pride
- Wisdom over dogma
- Actions over image
Rules (expansions on the guidelines):
- Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
- Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
- If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
- If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
- This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
- A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
- Examples:
- "This is reactionary. Here's why."
- "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
- "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
- You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
- Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
- If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
- If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
- If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
- No singular masculine ideal.
- This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
- Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
- Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
- This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
- No lifestyle content.
- Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
- Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
- At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
- If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.
Resources:
*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks
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The final chapter does a great way to talk about how men are raised to be killers which I think is important to understand. You can see this in the overwhelming use of violence by men. I think this a pretty obvious point but I am glad that it was laid out so well.
I do think that the real interesting part of this chapter is the focus on the use of the erotic and its relationship to love both externally as well as internally. I think is speaks so well to me because its one of the methods I got to this self love. I love the quote below:
I wish bell hooks did a more in-depth definition of eros and eroticism since this is so important. Eros is roughly translated into passion which I think a lot of men lack. I know I have a had time articulating my favorite things and what my passions are. There is a small strict list of hobbies that men are allowed to like and if those don't fit you its hard to find. I have found that finding and cultivating joy daily with things that I am passion about even if they are unmanly has really awakened myself. I found that before doing this I was filled mostly with boredom.
I really enjoyed bell hooks further explaining about sensuality which I like most men overlapped completely with sexuality. See quote below:
My female partner always mentioned how rough I was to myself which I think most men struggle with. I didn't know or thought it was wrong to take care of myself sensually. I was thought that making my body feel good was masturbation which was wrong. (Or at least non-phallic centric masturbation was wrong / feminine / gay /etc.). After realizing that isn't the case (or even if it was the case who cares) I have found that sensuality is useful tool to cultivate pleasure and eros in my daily life. I really resonate with bell hooks quote below because I lived it:
If anyone is interested in learning about how eros and eroticism I would recommend Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel which has an emphasis on couples but does have a good section about how a couple can't be erotic together if they don't understand the erotics in their own life. I also loved Pleasure Activism which is talking about how cultivating pleasure and the erotic in your own life is a revolutionary act in our consumerist society.
How are these things at odds with each other though?
How does hedonism combat treat-brain? Those things seem complimentary & self-reinforcing, not in conflict with each other.
So I won't be able to due the whole thing justice since its a whole series of essays but I will try to summarize it as best as possible. adrienne marree brown (the author of Pleasure Activitsm and who doesn't capitalize her name) starts with Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power which was her original inspiration which should help give an overview of the views of erotic as power which is a great starting point.
Her definition of pleasure isn't the same as a hedonism where avoiding all pain and taking all pleasure is the main goal. She talks more about how pleasure is something that someone needs to cultivate within their own life that is long lasting and meaningful. This is similar to eating only candy doesn't give a lasting satisfaction but rather short term happiness with longer term pain. True pleasure isn't a short term burst of happiness with a large drop or mindless low level entertainment but rather long lasting and sustainable.
One of the key ideas is that pleasure isn't something external that you can purchase, or be given to you but something you grow yourself daily. So you will need to find things that bring you joy based on your own internal desires and needs. A lot of her pleasure comes from human interactions, community and internal choices. There is a lot of talk about how art, fashion, dance, song, community, sex, conversation and meditation bring more long term pleasure than mindless entertainment. Also there is a large element about how finding what one truly wants is different from what society says you may want.
adrienne marree brown also has a large section about how as a queer black woman being happy and joyful in a world that says all those things are wrong is a revolutionary act. Since I am neither of those things this wasn't as important in my day to day life but beautiful to read and think about.
Her blog has some essays that were in her book I think in case you want to take a look.
I don't know; to address the topic of the thread in-general, rather than just the specific books you've offered. I have been independently reading Ms. hooks' book off & on independently of the reading group; but I for one haven't really been commenting on it, because aside from some insight into women's perceptions & experiences of men, as well as acknowledgements of men's own material & internal struggles under Capitalist Patriarchy, I just don't get a lot out of the book personally. There's not very much here that feels actionable to & applicable within my own life that I'm not already doing to the best of my ability; and the given that the book itself already feels more like Self-Help rather than solid political theory (although it contains kernels of that for certain), it just doesn't seem like it's for me.
A lot of this book and other similar books have less direct day to day changes but are mostly focused on attitude and mental changes. The changes in attitude and mental pathways seem less actionable and applicable but can have great changes in your day to day life. This is basically what Cognitive Behavior Therapy does which is highly effective.
Right, but I wouldn't call that politics. Like I said, it's more like Self-Help, or like you said therapy.
The difference is explained in Marx's "The German Ideology", and his contrasting of "Philosophic" & "Real" liberation.
Spoiler: Wall of Theory
The rub here, is that while Self-Help & Therapy can be good at providing strategies (both practical, and mental) at aligning ones "essence", with ones "existence" by shifting the former towards the latter; they are by definition not Revolutionary. Because the prosecution of a Revolution is precisely the opposite state of affairs, it is altering "existence" to suit one's "essence".