this post was submitted on 18 Dec 2024
86 points (100.0% liked)

menby

8001 readers
1 users here now

A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.

Detoxing masculinity since 1990!

You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.

Guidelines:

  1. Questions over blame
  2. Humility over pride
  3. Wisdom over dogma
  4. Actions over image

Rules (expansions on the guidelines):

  1. Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
    • Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
    • If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
    • If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
    • This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
    • A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
    • Examples:
      • "This is reactionary. Here's why."
      • "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
      • "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
  2. You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
    • Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
    • If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
    • If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
    • If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
  3. No singular masculine ideal.
    • This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
    • Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
    • Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
    • This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
  4. No lifestyle content.
    • Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
    • Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
    • At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
    • If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.

Resources:

*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Hello comrades, it's time for our third discussion thread for The Will to Change, covering Chapters 6 (Work: What's Love Got To Do With It?) and 7 (Feminist Manhood). Thanks to everyone who participated the last few weeks, I’m looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts again. And if you’re just joining the book club this week, welcome!

Chapter 6 discusses the role of work under patriarchy and how capitalism forces men and women alike to not only work long hours to survive, but to prioritize supporting themselves and their families financially over any sort of healing and growing. Chapter 7 delves into how men can apply feminist thought practically to support the well-being of themselves and the people around them.

If you haven't read the book yet but would like to, its available free on the Internet Archive in text form, as well as an audiobook on Youtube with content warnings at the start of each chapter, courtesy of the Anarchist Audio Library, and as an audiobook on our very own TankieTube! (note: the YT version is missing the Preface but the Tankietube version has it)

As always let me know if you'd like to be added to the ping list!

Our next discussion will be on Chapters 8 (Popular Culture: Media Masculinity) and 9 (Healing Male Spirit), beginning on 12/25. That thread will likely stay up a little longer than usual as I'm sure many people will be busy around the end of the year and I want to give everyone the opportunity to share their thoughts.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago

Chapter 7 is finally talking about alternative/feminist masculinity that we have wanting throughout the whole book. It lays out some of the assumptions about masculinity and feminism in the earlier chapters. I loved these early quotes:

Popular opinion about the impact of feminist movement on men’s lives is that feminism hurt men.

A man who is unabashedly and unequivocally committed to patriarchal masculinity will both fear and hate all that the culture deems feminine and womanly.

This really shows why an alternative masculinity is needed and why it is so difficult. The fear of the feminine and womanly is driving this cultural perspective that feminism hurts men when its not the case. Moreover, it shows the difficulty in finding an alternative masculinity since masculinity is defined as an opposite of women. If this is the case, it shows why men are terrified of feminism. If woman can be anything the opposite would mean that men can't be anything. This is not what feminism says but can be a persuasion argument if you like about it. bell hooks lays out why this myth started which I think is amazing because it destroys the argument that all feminist hate all men. Moreover, it shows how intersectionality can solve this problem which I think bell books lays out amazing in the following quote:

These were the women for whom feminist liberation was more about getting their piece of the power pie and less about freeing masses of women or less powerful men from sexist oppression. They were not mad at their powerful daddies and husbands who kept poor men exploited and oppressed; they were mad that they were not being giving equal access to power.

This is more and more obvious as time goes on. The rich white woman who take up the mantle of patriarchy to dominate those below them. They were always powerful and want to keep this power and don't want to rock the boat. They are happy being second best as long as there are people below them .

Her new model of positive masculinity is great if a little trans-exclusive which is understandable based on the age of the book. I think we can take the quote below and alter it as a new basis of alternative masculinity. See below (emphasis mine):

Rejecting this model for a feminist masculinity means that we must define maleness as a state of being rather than as performance. Male being, maleness, masculinity must stand for the essential core goodness of the self, of the human body that has a penis. Many of the critics who have written about masculinity suggest that we need to do away with the term, that we need “an end to manhood.” Yet such a stance furthers the notion that there is something inherently evil, bad, or unworthy about maleness.

If remove the portion about genitals this can serve as as good definition. This is similar to what feminism has done for women. There is no single definition of a woman because I woman can be anything she wants. If we move this men, it shows that there is no single definition of a man. A man can be anything because there is no single definition of a man. Any man's masculinity is inherent in their own maleness and nothing needs to be done to prove this. There has been criticism that positive masculinity is just niceness Masc coded but that might just be a good definition.

I would use this stolen and repackaged quote to define masculinity. "If you feel like a man, you're real like a man".