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Those books are different from how I remembered… (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by [M] to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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[–] 16 points 2 years ago (15 children)

deliver information to you based on an experience which can’t be physically observed or quantified

I'm not sure if "Black Box of electro-chemistry" is necessarily the same as "Non-determinism".

That said, we contain the ability to observe and react to our surroundings which causes a large and complex web of interactions that aren't trivial to map or anticipate.

That unpredictablity is what we ultimately define as freedom.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I was curious if anyone would catch that. My comment doesn't necessarily ensure free will, it just rejects a physicalist model of reality as a basis for determinism. You can have neutral monism and still have determinism.

    I was just trying to embrace the spirit of shitposting idealist takes in response to shitty physicalist takes. 🤭

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (11 children)

    That said, we contain the ability to observe and react to our surroundings which causes a large and complex web of interactions that aren't trivial to map or anticipate.

    That unpredictablity is what we ultimately define as freedom.

    How does higher uncertainty of my choices achieving what I strive for raise the perception of freedom of said choice?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (10 children)

    higher uncertainty of my choices achieving what I strive for

    More higher uncertainty of an outside observer predicting the choices you will make.

    The inability to anticipate another person's actions suggests they may have internal agency. Compared to say, a rock, which you can shove and confidently predict where it will stop moving, a human is far more difficult to judge.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    I don’t understand what you are getting at. You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (8 children)

    You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

    If the fly lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

    If it has agency, you could not.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    It's difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind, but I don't think anybody would say a leaf has agency.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind

    Orders of magnitude less difficult, as the leaf can't glean your intent and respond accordingly.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

    Can you prove that?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

    That the movement of a leaf in the wind is less complex than the electro-chemical processes of a human brain?

    With enough time and math, certainly.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    The point is, you were using the point that a fly's movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency. But, a leaf floating on the wind also has complex movements. To me, that makes it seem like complex movements aren't a solid indicator of agency.

    If you're now talking about dissection, that's a whole different argument.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    a fly’s movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency

    A fly has the ability to observe its surroundings and adjust its position in response to outside stimulus. A leaf does not. That, alone, adds a dimension of activity that the first possesses and the second doesn't.

    You can argue that the fly is still a deterministic agent, but the ability to observe and respond adds a dimension of activity that's more complex than a leaf, which can only move based on the surrounding wind currents.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    You missed the point while drawing your circular argument.

    Take what you said and replace fly with human. Wait here I’ll do it for you:

    If a human lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

    If it has agency, you could not.

    Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

    You can't. That's a significant problem of identifying the existence or absence of "Free Will".

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