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Those books are different from how I remembered… (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by [M] to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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[–] 4 points 2 years ago (9 children)

I don’t understand what you are getting at. You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (8 children)

    You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

    If the fly lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

    If it has agency, you could not.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    It's difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind, but I don't think anybody would say a leaf has agency.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind

    Orders of magnitude less difficult, as the leaf can't glean your intent and respond accordingly.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

    Can you prove that?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

    That the movement of a leaf in the wind is less complex than the electro-chemical processes of a human brain?

    With enough time and math, certainly.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    The point is, you were using the point that a fly's movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency. But, a leaf floating on the wind also has complex movements. To me, that makes it seem like complex movements aren't a solid indicator of agency.

    If you're now talking about dissection, that's a whole different argument.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    a fly’s movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency

    A fly has the ability to observe its surroundings and adjust its position in response to outside stimulus. A leaf does not. That, alone, adds a dimension of activity that the first possesses and the second doesn't.

    You can argue that the fly is still a deterministic agent, but the ability to observe and respond adds a dimension of activity that's more complex than a leaf, which can only move based on the surrounding wind currents.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    You missed the point while drawing your circular argument.

    Take what you said and replace fly with human. Wait here I’ll do it for you:

    If a human lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

    If it has agency, you could not.

    Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

    You can't. That's a significant problem of identifying the existence or absence of "Free Will".

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