this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2023
1530 points (77.8% liked)
Memes
45731 readers
749 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I don't have the sources for that specific graph but I do have this one showing 7 out of 11 former soviet countries saying it: https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
...did you read this whole thing? Or just take the numbers and run with it?
Also:
How is any of this proof that these countries should return to communism? It sounds like education, freedom of political expression and those who see opportunity in themselves and their children are all factors in people turning their backs to communism.
I just quoted literally verbatim what the pollers said. You can deep dive looking for cope all you want but the fact remains that people see the change to capitalism as making their countries worse. If you want to get more upset you can read my other longer comment.
I'm not upset. :)
I did go back and go through what you posted. At the end of the article about Hungary. There's a "read more" link, which expands the article to include this:
So they absolutely aren't saying they want to return to communism. Like, at all. They're just frustrated that joining the EU isn't the democratic form of governance they were hopping for, and are dissatisfied with that.
Weird how the people that lived under communism correlate with greater support for communism isn't it? (sarcasm)
Completely goes against the point being made by this meme.
...are you just ignoring what I just wrote above? Lol. They don't correlate with greater support for communism. The numbers don't mean they want to go back to communism, they mean they want more democracy.
They want more democratic results that represent the people. Something they had under communism, and something that no liberal democracy actually provides. In a bourgeoise-democracy you get a choice between multiple parties none of which represent the people. In a proletarian-democracy you get proletarian results. Such is the nature of dictatorships of class.
Except the current Hungarian elite and the previous elite are the same people.
lol no they're not
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint%C3%A9r_S%C3%A1ndor_(rend%C5%91rtiszt)
The head commissar of the National Police from communist times is the current Minister of Interior. Also, he was a board member in Hungary's largest bank during the brief time he wasn't in the government in some way.
Half a dozen ministers from Orbán's government shared a dorm room with him back when he was secretary for the Young Communists.
Unlike most neighbouring countries, the documents detailing covert interior security agents have not been publicly released. The people of the old Hungarian State Security who were tasked with finding out, torturing and killing counterrevolutionaries are now occupying seats in the parliament, government and opposition alike.
So lol yes, they are. Except they now pretend to be fascists instead of pretending to be communists.
Under capitalism the political class are subservient to the financial elite. You are making a hierarchy error, these people are puppets to the real elite.
Orbán is the richest man in Hungary. He is the financial elite. There was one person who has been used by him as a strawman and thus was in the same league financially, and then he tried to go against him. The guy is out of the country and has been stripped of most of his money.
You're applying US patterns to places you don't understand. In Hungary, the old communist elite saved their power and transferred it into the new capitalist system, that morphed into the current hybrid regime. It resembles Russia more than anything else, with the same pattern that you can't be independently wealthy in Hungary.
I'm not american.
I didn't say that, only that there is no one "capitalist" system with patterns that apply everywhere. You said that the government of Hungary is subservient to its financial class, but there is no financial class in Hungary that's separate from the government.
They didn't say you're American, they're saying you're applying US patterns to places you don't understand, which you certainly don't have to be American to do.
Wow, I wasn't aware of this! That's wild, no wonder there's so much dissatisfaction!
There's always worse. In the early 2000s there was a movement calling for a state referendum on abolishing a particularly stupid institution that basically allowed every Hungarian politician to claim as much expenses as they wanted, without limit or even a need to show receipts.
The movement was successful in collecting enough signatures, but the government just abolished the institution before the referendum, re-establishing it under a different name just months later, so the signatures didn't count.
Those signatures collected however show up for nominations for micro-parties no one heard about which divide the opposition vote. Mind that 20 years have passed, and many signatories are dead. The leaders of these micro-parties get public funds for campaigning, which they always steal, and the party is always disbanded before any serious investigation would happen. The government is okay with this.
You seem to be outright lying (to yourself, perhaps?) In the face of evidence against your claims. Communism only provides "more democratic results that represent the people" in a utopian setting, of which Hungary under communism certainly did not. The artical outright states that the people behind the dissatisfaction numbers believe they don't have a democracy, which makes so much sense now that u/maynarkh has explained that the very same elite under under communist rule solidified themselves into Hungary's new government. Jesus. No wonder they're unsatisfied.
Listen, I know it's no fun to have your beliefs shaken, heaven knows that's happened to me a few times and it sucks. But instead of digging your heels in and trying to twist the words of the articles you linked that you honestly believed backed up your claims, either find ones that actually do, or drop this one, cause anyone with a brain can figure out it actually doesnt.
I haven't told a single lie or engaged dishonestly with anyone. You can jog on if you think I'm reading past that sentence.
You claimed in an earlier comment that those of us against communism outright lie to reach our claims. I honestly didn't think you'd get offended if I suggested the same of you, so I apologize if I offended you.
Your willingness to cut off our conversation due to being offended over the suggestion you might be lying to yourself is pretty convenient. I was hoping you'd read what I wrote and think about it. You don't have to change your views or beliefs, certainly, but engaging in these conversations is how you hone and are able to defend your beliefs on general.
I understand that up until now, Lemmy has been mostly made of anti-capitalists, so it can be jarring when pro-capitolists flood the space and push back against what's essentially been an anti-capitalist circle-jerk. Totally understandable.