this post was submitted on 08 Apr 2024
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Neurodivergence
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What kind of response are you expecting? Or is this just a rant/vent? I don't agree with your statement entirely, many people would also want people with NPD, psychopathy or sociopathy to get support. The problem, however, is that it is really hard for most to give people with strong narcissistic or manipulative traits the support they need. Similarly, I also have compassion with pedophiles and wish them the support they need. But obviously I don't want them to be enabled (or even allowed) to follow their sexuality. Same goes for people with narcissistic and manipulative traits. I want them to get support but not be enabled or allowed to hurt or manipulate others.
Recently I stumbled upon this podcast called "The Bright Sessions" where they basically envision neurodivergent people and/or people with mental disorders as having superhuman powers. There also is a character that might fall into your description of people who are not treated with compassion. The podcast really explores what that means and how compassion can look like with a person like that.
ETA: and this comes from a person who has been traumatized over decades by various people with strong narcissistic traits.
NPD doesn't cause manipulation. And people with NPD aren't more likely to abuse others.
Do you have any references to back up this claim? From personal experience I most strongly disagree with your statement. I have suffered all my life from narcissistic people and even many years of therapy were not sufficient to surpass my childhood trauma.
Also, if you don't want to take a subjective perspective there is really a looot of research that shows how abusive people with NPD are.
"Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by self-absorption, grandiosity, exploitation of others and lack of empathy. [...] Empathy represents a key point in detecting people affected by narcissistic personality disorder because, even if it is described as reduced, it plays a fundamental role in exploitation and manipulation. [...] Subjects with NPD may experience those problems with affective empathy because they feel others’ emotions as threatening and dangerous and react with detachment to preserve their own personal integrity. In addition to exploitation, a lack of empathic affectivity appears associated with proneness to criminal behaviors, particularly when NPD coexists with antisocial traits, contributing to psychopathy.".
"The interpersonal style of the more narcissistic patients was particularly characterized by domineering, vindictive, and intrusive behavior."
"higher levels of narcissism were significantly associated with more interpersonal impairment, particularly characterized by domineering, vindictive, and overly nurturing behaviour."
"Five studies investigated the links among narcissism, self-esteem, and love. Across all studies, narcissism was associated primarily with a game-playing love style. [...] Narcissists' game-playing love style was the result of a need for power and autonomy."
"Pathological narcissism is marked by deficits in psychosocial functioning. Difficulties in relationships include instances of aggression, devaluation and control [...] In response, participants (the narcissists' partners and family members) reported high levels of anxiety, depression, self-aggression, sickness and somatic concerns.
"The present study examined the relationship of grandiose and vulnerable narcissism with dispositional anger and hostility. We investigated the roles of neuroticism, emotional intelligence, and gender in this relationship [...] The results indicated that vulnerable narcissism was associated with a higher tendency toward anger and hostility, and that neuroticism accounted for a large part of this association. Poor emotion managing, known as strategic emotion regulation ability, also played a role in hostility related to vulnerable narcissism, especially among men. When emotional stability was controlled for, grandiose narcissism showed links to anger and hostility. We concluded that high neuroticism and poor emotion regulation abilities among vulnerable narcissists contribute to increased anger/hostility, whereas emotional stability likely protects grandiose narcissists against these internal aspects of aggression."
"Qualitative semi-structured interviews with seven participants who reported being in a relationship with a narcissistic partner were thematically analyzed. Three overarching themes emerged: (a) overt and covert expressions of abuse, (b) challenge to self-perceived authority, and (c) fear of abandonment. Findings suggest both grandiose and vulnerable narcissists’ reactions to narcissistic injury are most likely covertly and overtly aggressive and violent; however, the underlying motives for the behavior differed. For grandiose narcissists, violence was commonly triggered by threats to self-esteem, whereas vulnerable narcissists commonly experienced significant injury and rage from fear of abandonment."
I could go on citing studies on this. I wonder what counter-evidence you'll be able to produce.
Lack of empathy isn't abuse. Empathy is a private, personal feeling. Other people's feelings are not abuse. Neurotypical society encourages a toxic dynamic where you must feel certain ways about other people in your own head, or you are a so-called abuser. A person who is not feeling affective empathy is perfectly capable of cognitive empathy and of practicing ethics and morality. Affective empathy is a feeling. Cognitive empathy is knowledge. Ethics and morality are theories and behaviours. And I can report from my own experiences and those of other people living with NPD, that the reason we have lower empathy on average is that we can choose whether to have empathy. We are perfectly capable of feeling the feelings of others, but we can also block that feeling when it's irrelevant. We can feel and understand others' feelings in order to develop our sense of ethics, but we can turn it off when it's a hindrance. If a man is drunk and shouting at me for being trans, I don't want to feel empathy for his hatred of me. I turn my empathy off. If I'm talking to a woman who had a miscarriage, I can turn my empathy off while still showing sympathy. I know miscarriages are bad, I know how horrible they feel, I just don't want to also feel that way. The neurotypical demand that everyone feel empathy at all is unreasonable. Neurotypicals say "People with NPD don't choose to suffer when I feel bad. That's abuse". I disagree. And I don't believe neurotypicals feel empathy at all times either. Their empathy shuts off when it's important. pwNPD just have more control, do it more often. There's nothing wrong with that. Hyperempathy is a symptom associated with disorders like BPD and sometimes even NPD, and it's a lot worse than selective empathy. People with hyperempathy can't function when someone is upset. They sometimes end up covering over and ignoring conflicts and being unable to resolve them because it hurts too much to think about a problem. That's toxic. Yes, selective empathy can be used to inflict harm with fewer consequences, but so can a kitchen knife, and people who cook are not evil abusers. Nor are people living with NPD. And if lack of empathy made us abusers, then people with autism would be as well. They are not, and we are not.
That's my response to the first link you showed. As you can see, I've thought a whole lot about this topic and have very strong feelings. From my point of view, this is someone saying "Your private thoughts are different from other people's. That's abuse!" You can see why this triggers me. I think it's best now if I calm down, rather than discussing all the links you posted. You are free to discuss what I've said, and if I'm calm enough I'll try to answer. I'd like to convince you of my point of view, at least with empathy. I am not sure I have the wherewithal to discuss everything you've linked.
You did not read any further then the very first link and already claim that I'm wrong? Also, most of what you wrote is probably aligned with your own emotions but logically doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't want to trigger you and please take care of yourself. But please also refrain from spamming this thread with made up claims because you feel threatened by them. Because in doing so you actually really prove your lack of empathy and how you don't care about others.
You are not the only one triggered by this topic. Surviving parents with NPD and multiple similar longterm romantic relationships mean I get triggered as well if someone wants to tell me that people like these are not abusive. And yes, the abuse was directly linked to narcissistic traits in each case. So don't tell me otherwise unless you can prove it.
If you really want to convince me, you would need to link to actual research or anything that can show how NPD and abusiveness are not linked. Just by telling personal anecdotes you are not convincing anyone, the opposite actually.
As someone with a NPD parent I don't know if I could agree with you. But yeah, me and my siblings might not be on the good statistics.
One of my parents is a woman. And she was an abusive woman. But do I hate women? No. That's because I understand that my personal experiences aren't always indicative of the state of the larger world. Now, you probably think the idea of hating women because of an abusive woman parent is ridiculous, and you're right. It's ridiculous because you and I have met many women, and we know that most women aren't abusive. I have also met many people living with NPD, and that's why I know thinking people who suffer from NPD are abusive is ridiculous. But if you've never been to an NPD support group, you probably haven't met a lot of pwNPD, and you probably don't have the directly experienced perspective to instinctively understand what I do. Which is why it's important for everyone to understand the limits of our own experience.
This is a logical fallacy. Your example doesn't work. Your mother wasn't abusive because she was a woman, so why would you associate her abusiveness with her womanhood? NPD on the other hand directly leads to abusive, manipulative and exploitative behaviour. So in this case NPD is directly associated with abusiveness. And yes, I have met my fair share with pwNPD (or other personality disorders). I have also some experience with being in psychiatric clinics, so I have met many people with various mental problems/disorders.
But all this is not to say that pwNPD are not human beings with their own struggles and needs, too. Obviously pwNPD suffer greatly from their condition and it pains me a lot how hard it is to actually provide support for them. It is a really messed up situation that pwNPD are mostly incapable of self-awareness and (affective) empathy that it is nearly impossible to help them :(
What makes you think that having NPD parents makes one hate NDPs? I understand where you are coming from but you also need to understand the limits of your own experience. We are all hurt here, if we want to understand and be understood we need to make an attempt. Don't take things as an offence or direct attack to yourself.