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submitted 2 years ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.

One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We're only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.

I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?

The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I'm not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren't are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.

I mean, it's also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it's nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we're expected to grit our teeth and "walk it off."

[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I hope I'm not intruding on men's spaces here as a transwoman,

But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender's social dynamics. Men just don't get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what's the point of "equality" if we don't lift everyone up to the same standards?

I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn't fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.

Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.

*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I'm blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

First, this is a long comment, and I don't want to come off as dissing it. I agree with you. Except for that concluding thought.

I used to think that that was true, women vs. men for voting rights. But about ten years ago, I wandered into the Berkeley Historical Society. They had a bunch of materials on display about the women's suffrage movement, including just boxes of documents. One of the first ones that I pulled out was a poster for an anti-suffrage meeting. A meeting organized by women.

In fact, they had lots of documentation about anti-suffrage efforts by the society women of Berkeley. That completely shocked me, given Berkeley's crunchy reputation. But I did more research later, and found that it was not at all unusual.

Up until the early years of the 20th century, most women were against it! Even when the 15th Amendment passed, a large minority of women still opposed it. As well, quite a lot of men supported it. (Obviously, they had, to since they were the ones voting to pass it.)

Anyway, the framing of the issue as women demanding the vote from men is oversimplified.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Thank you for sharing. I haven't figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I'm a dad and wasn't going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.

There's a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don't have enough support, so let's give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It's the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he's part of the patriarchy, suppressing women's voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Your perspective is absolutely welcome here! I'm transfemme myself

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Rather than intruding, transitioned individuals ought to be seen as the strongest allies - on both sides of the fence. The lived experience you being to the table is tremendously valuable because it is so indisputably valid.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

It's not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society's standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.

This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.

There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.

But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it's in acceptance from both men and women.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman.

As a women that, granted, had some serious questions about gender in my younger years this has always blown my mind because it’s so multi-faceted.

Women are more emotionally supportive, but it can quickly spiral into an almost gross-feeling and superficial reinforcement. Everything seems to be “valid” or demands an emotion-ridden hullabaloo, whereas the men in my life have always been more direct and straightforward, unafraid to call out my general jack-assery or quip “yeah, that sucks” when there’s not much else to be said about my general state of affairs.

The flip side of this is that women tend to be more sympathetic/vocal to general life events and encouraging to mild up or down days, whereas men tend to cock an eyebrow and ask what you’re so excited/upset about when you show up to work “having feelings” on a random Tuesday because your spouse threw a fit about leftover spaghetti that morning.

The dichotomy is fascinating to me, to watch unfold every day with every interaction. I find myself (not correctly or incorrectly) leaning towards men in times of crisis (muted response), and towards women in times of -life in general- (exacerbated response) because it gives me the mean/median output of (normal human response).

However, this doesn’t mean men only have “regular” mode or “crisis” mode, or that women only live in an amplified wave of “normal” and “slightly less normal”, and I think that’s where we find our faults. Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun that no longer serves us well. Men ARE emotionally supportive, and women ARE reserved/stoic, it’s just not always what you expect at the time so it gets glossed over and deleted, to the detriment of everyone.

Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.

Spitting straight-up facts.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I'm sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that's terrible for everyone.

Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides."

I'm confused why you wouldn't want him to see them. Isn't in your best interest to have people who love you and think you're a good dad in your kids' lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Oh I'm fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn't hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.

My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was "cut off." So, despite the fact I'm sad that my mother can't see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn't right.

I will also mention my brother was "cut off" because of his close associations with me.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

I am very low contract with my mother and sister because they kept my ex as a friend after all her bullshit through the divorce. I put on a show for my son to have sort of normal family times at holidays, etc. but I mostly do not connect with them outside of time with my son. We are NOT friends.

So, internet stranger. I understand the crazy bullshit that comes with divorce for a man.

And it is amazing how quickly and thoroughly men are discarded after a divorce. Disposable indeed.

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[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

As a married cis man moving towards his 40s, I can only confirm from my perspective that the male-to-male friendship experience seems broken.

First of all, in college I learned about the performative nature of gender and that gave me the tools I needed to push back against social pressure. I wear what's comfortable, I try to be considate towards others, I talk about emotions, and I do what sounds fun without a care about whether it makes me "feminine" or "gay". I feel that pushing against gender performance expectations has made me a better and fulfilled person.

But male-male friendships are still really hard, and I don't get it. I've lost all of mine, for various reasons. Some of us got busy with careers, families, or whatever other reason. I've reached out now, multiple times, over the last few years, to old male friends and coworkers that I worked with for 5+ years.

The conversation starts with a list of accomplishments. I congratulate them, so glad they're doing well. We're both pretty happy in careers too.

I ask how they're doing, what do they do for fun, you still with that same girl? Fine. Same old. Uh huh.

I suggest that maybe we should do something sometime. Play disc golf. Play some games. Hang out. Meet somewhere. Bring your kids if you want, I'd love to meet them.....and at this point they get distant and eventually ghost me.

After a few instances of this, I started to wonder if there's something wrong with me. Maybe they didn't like me. Maybe I said something wrong. But there was one other instance. A woman I worked with for like 9 months. I called her once to ask for a job reference. And we ended up talking for an hour about our lives, our SOs, life goals etc. Before I could ask, she ended up suggesting that hang out and bring our SOs.

The only male friends I have right now are the male SOs of female friends or my wife's girl friends.

Some of the most fulfilling friend groups we've had since were groups with LGBT and NB folks. And I think that's because, even though gender performance is absolutely an important thing in these groups, there's less pressure for us, a cis couple, to "perform" in a certain way. Our conversations are more real and liberated. It's less anxious and competitive. But at the same time, those friendships eventually end because I don't they can really connect with us - like, we're still outsiders and so there's a bit of a block. I understand, but it sucks.

Because we try to connect with cis men, or even couples, in our area, we either get standoffishness or competitions. Like, we're getting evaluated for our performance of gender / society / life expectations. My wife and I have careers, no kids, and we're fine, but we're also trying to explore who we are outside that. And new cis friendships at our age seems to be less about connecting and doing fun things and more about bragging about accomplishments or complaining about the lack of them over coffee.

And its so hard to find any cis men that are just fucking chill and maybe tired of all the anxiety and social pressure around masculinity and just willing to be a person rather than a "man".

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

That's my experience, too. Most of the times I've opened up to a girlfriend, it's turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn't know is that male friendships aren't as deep.

That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends

My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We've had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.

Sure, I'm not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.

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[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do

Is this actually a thing? I've always moved away from everyone's path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I've ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn't make room for other people.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Oh, it's totally a thing. I'm a woman and short, so I'm below the eye line of most men, and I've had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they'll get annoyed if you don't. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don't know if it shows on my face.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Weird. Imo everyone should yield - that way both parties only have to do a little sidestep and they both feel seen. But I guess caring about others seems to be a dying thing anyways...

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[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.

I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.

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[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

As a minor example supporting a lot of what's in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, "I don't know, I didn't ask". She seemed shocked and can't understand why I say we don't have those kinds of conversations.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.

I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.

I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.

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[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I believe that's why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.

That's accurate, but doesn't convey they entire picture accurately.

Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women's incomplete attempts were deemed to be a "cry for help" rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.

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this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
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