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Non-Conditional (quokk.au)

submitted 1 week ago by Quokka@quokk.au to c/transmemes@lemmy.blahaj.zone

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[-] notaviking@lemmy.world 116 points 6 days ago

[removed by mod]

[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 69 points 6 days ago

I get what you're saying, totally. And it is perfectly acceptable to disagree with aspects of a "cause" while still supporting the people involved.

But (hah) that's not really the point of the comic.

It's when you feel the need to throw in your "but" after a statement of support that is at issue. It's not the fact of being free to have objections to the pharmaceutical industry using animals that's the problem in your example. It would be, in the context of this post, that you felt that your objection was tied to the right of trans people to exist with equal rights.

See, objection is to a completely separate issue. You can focus on reducing or eliminating the use of animals in medicine without tying it to the right of trans people to have access to gender affirming care. If your objection is to the animal issue, great, wonderful. That's a separate conversation.

And I'm only using that example because it's the one you used. It could be anything, any "but".

Like, my little issue that intersects enough that it could be a but is allowing dedicated spaces. There are times and places where a branch of cis gendered experience is being shared, and someone that isn't part of that group is going to be extraneous or possibly disruptive. Like, you don't have a support group for men that survive testicular cancer and think it's okay for a cis woman to show up. It's okay to exclude women from that. It's also okay to exclude anyone that hasn't had testicular cancer, even if they have testicles. It's also okay to exclude people that never had testicles at all, even if they're men, regardless of being cis or trans.

That, however, is absolutely unnecessary to bring up when I say "I support trans people". There's no but there. The support is full stop. No buts. There's zero need to drag that separate issue that just happens to intersect in a peripheral way with some segment of the trans population.

That's what the comic is about, not blindly accepting things. What it comes down to is that if you think your "buts" are more important than supporting the rights of trans people, you aren't really supporting them. And that's what adding that "but" means. It's saying that whatever your issue is is more important, that it overrides that struggle.

That's it. The presence of the but in that statement indicates it isn't true. And that would be the case for any "I support" statement.

[-] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 21 points 6 days ago

Excellent response

[-] arrow74@lemmy.zip 14 points 6 days ago

I understand what you are saying. The issue is if someone were to say, using the example, "I don't think we should use animal based hormones" without a qualifier they run the risk of having to fight off allegations of not supporting or discriminating against trans people when that clearly isn't what they belive.

So they start with the qualifier. However now people claim that is disingenuous.

Honestly it's something I've seen develop more and more over the years. People like to ignore all of the context of any given conversation.

Obviously if the qualifier is followed with something actually unsupportive you're right, but based on the comic we'll never get to know what that but was.

[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 10 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I tend to be the sort that if I voice something akin to this subject and it gets twisted into an allegation, I'm going to explain what I mean more fully, or determine if the person just has an axe to grind, or at least take the time to examine their take and see if I should change my thinking on a subject. If they just have an axe to grind, I'm out because I don't have patience for zealots. If it was a misunderstanding, then it's easy to fix. It is also entirely possible that someone could come up with something I hadn't considered.

I'm old as fuck though. It makes me a bit more willing to listen than when I was younger and might have gotten het up over someone bringing up a tangent to a big issue. And, I'm also less willing to tolerate when someone is just looking for an argument by throwing an allegation and assuming the worst rather than just talking like a decent human being. I'm too old to argue with a zealot, so I just walk away. Even online, I have to be in a foul mood before I'll give energy to someone that's not acting in good faith with me as a fellow human being. In meat space, I have body language, tone and such to help make that determination, so I tend to walk away quicker (though often with an eye roll and some muttering about wasted time.)

Legit though, in the comic's scenario, there would be nothing that could come after the "but" that would be germaine. Hypothetically, yeah, a person could be coming up with something that wasn't going to negate the original statement. It just doesn't work out that way when it comes to discussion of marginalized peoples. Like, since I first became aware of humans being shitty to groups of humans they don't like, it's a thing. Nobody ever throws out "I support gays, but...", or "black people deserve civil rights, but..." without following up with something that works against their previous statement.

Folks bringing up stuff like your example? They're not going to say it the same way. "But" is used in a way that negates more often than not, and when it's about supporting a marginalized group, I have never seen anyone throw a but without negating their supposed support. Worse, it's fairly common in my experience that the "but" ends up being a dog whistle or outright bigoted.

Going back to the vegan example (and let me interject that this conversation has been really awesome, I love it when people engage the way you are), if someone says "but animal hormones", they're effectively saying that their belief in appropriate manufacture of medical products is more important than the rights of trans people to access gender affirming care.

If they didn't think that, they'd most likely, go with "and it sucks that trans people have reduced access to ethically sourced hormones". It's a different way of thinking about a given issue. There's ways to expand a conversation to include one's related thoughts without using a negating conjunction. You know in role play and improv, there's a guiding principle of "yes, and" instead of "yes, but"? It applies in this kind of situation, with the choice of but rather than and pointing to a less humorous situation.

Like, in running over this example, if I had an objection to the source of the hormones, my way of expressing it would come out "I support trans people. I really wish the pharmaceutical industry would support them in a way that reduces harm to animals as well. We can have both." That's the phrasing that came into my head when I put myself in that hypothetical vegan's place.

It's a different way of communication, it's a different way of thinking.

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[-] nooch@lemmy.vg 25 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

That's because IRL the context of "but" s doesn't usually go like this when there's a legitimate argument. The point of the comic is not blindly following trans people.

"I support trans people, but X" tends to have transphobic sentiment, even if X could be valid. In your example, many medicines are animal-derived or tested on animals. Focusing on addressing trans prople on this topic is usually a choice.

If you have these views, the context you would usually express them is not addressing trans people, but your message would probably be "I oppose people taking animal-derived medicines even if it improves their health".

Another simplified example. Let's say there's a grifter, scammer, scummy trans person, Alice. If you want to denounce Alice, you'd say "Alice is a scammer, xyz, don't use her as positive trans representation" in a forum, discussion, post, etc. You'd probably not start with "I support trans people, but some of them are scammers like Alice". Imagine how weird that would sound with other minority or opressed groups (women, black, gay, etc).

By the way: I don't know if you're vegan, but most vegans don't share your views on animal-derived or tested medicine (even the Vegan Society definition accepts these medicines). I'd suggest you find another term so you don't misrepresent veganism, like "ethical" or "[strict] animal rights" beliefs. I don't want to invalidate or debate your beliefs but calling it veganism is just not accurate.

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 15 points 6 days ago

Exactly, this is in the manipulators playbook:

"I have nothing against X, but have you seen Y?!",

Y is very tangentially related to X, and should be addressed on its own, but is used to intentionally "smear" the bad reputation onto X.

These "buts" do not come from allies.

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[-] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 22 points 6 days ago

Absolutism is dangerous regardless of how "right" the argument is.

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[-] cannibalkitteh@piefed.blahaj.zone 10 points 6 days ago

Would I be wrong to say (this is a damn shitty example so clearly wrong to make a point): I support trans rights, but I do not support their preference to use of animal-derived hormone replacement therapy instead of synthetic-derived, as it conflicts with my Vegan beliefs.

Yes, because you've moved the conversation away from one of support to a tangentially related topic that you wish to engage on. While occasionally, this can be a teachable moment or an honest discussion, more often than not, it is used to derail or poison the topic.

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[-] Ethan0l_C2H60@lemmy.world 51 points 6 days ago

I support trans people, but I still feel a little bit uncomfortable around them because of my conservative upbringing and how hard "trans = bad" was driven into my head. I'm working on improving that and every time I interact with someone who is trans I become a little bit more comfortable with it.

If I ever felt the need to tell someone this feeling, I think I would completely rephrase it to avoid this situation anyway.

[-] ThunderQueen@lemmy.world 36 points 6 days ago

Im the trans girl your parents warned you about >:3

I get it. I had to do a lot of unlearning just to be comfortable with myself. I can hardly blame folks who are trying for slipping up as long as they do what the can to make it right.

[-] 3rdXthecharm@lemmy.ml 15 points 6 days ago

Some of us grew up with that same belief set about ourselves.

I think theres a lot of opportunity to say that kind of thing kindly to a friend or person. As someone who's working on not seeing herslef as bad just because I exist, the fact that you're working towards fixing that internal bias helps on that journey for anyone traveling it

[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 9 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

That's fair, I had sorts of folks I had to spend time around to get comfortable with too. I think a lot of people think that it's necessary or easy to suddenly become comfortable with sorts of people who are marginalized. But what we should be doing is demanding people be moving towards a more equal and free society and not making their discomfort those people's problem.

ETA: building comfort with those groups is also important, but it's slow and it's something we shouldn't beat people up for not being quite at yet.

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[-] Dojan@pawb.social 65 points 6 days ago

I also support trans people’s butts.

[-] BunScientist@lemmy.zip 43 points 6 days ago

Are you, like, a chair or something?

[-] Dojan@pawb.social 40 points 6 days ago

From time to time!

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[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 12 points 6 days ago

Hopefully with consent ;)

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[-] quips@slrpnk.net 23 points 6 days ago

I get it but you’re gonna turn people away because it isn’t literally true.

For example: I support trans people, but would oppose them forming an army and going on a murder spree.

[-] Jankatarch@lemmy.world 15 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Fair fair, but I kinda made a promise two months ago so personally...

Tumblr post from march reading quote unquote "I am a trans ally. Like in the military sense. You may call upon me during tactical combat."

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[-] Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 5 days ago

Don't put limits on your allyship, "Trans Army going on a murder spree" is justified and also an awesome band name.

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[-] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 38 points 6 days ago

Fits well with the Not Racist Butt

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[-] DupaCycki@lemmy.world 48 points 6 days ago

I support trans people, butt

[-] Quokka@quokk.au 32 points 6 days ago

Trans people know breast.

[-] laslojott@mas.to 13 points 6 days ago

@Quokka @transmemes Breasting boobily

[-] GraniteM@lemmy.world 25 points 6 days ago

I support trans people, but if one of them cut my legs off with an axe, I'd probably be a little bit upset.

[-] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 points 6 days ago

I've removed a bunch of comments from this thread.

The "but" in this meme means "But there are instances where I don't support a trans person's identity/equal rights". It means that there is never a scenario where you think it's ok to suggest that trans people should have less rights than cis people, and that there is never a scenario where you think it's ok to invalidate a trans persons identity.

If your reply is something along the signs of supporting the "but..." because you think "actually, there are some shitty trans people", then cool, we know, but this isn't the thread for it, and you're pulling trans people down in a trans space, to defend a position no one was making. This isn't that thread. This is a thread for support. So I've removed those "gotcha" replies.

If your reply is "actually, there are times when trans people don't deserve equal rights or to have their identity respected", then your comment has been removed, and you've been permanently banned from all blahaj spaces.

[-] Jarix@lemmy.world 16 points 6 days ago

I don't support ignorance. My own included.

If you(the plural you, not you the person who's comment I'm replying to) check out just because you hear the word but and presume to know what's going to be said next or that you can judge that person without them saying another word then you could be a better person.

In this specific example, one could have said I support trans people but I don't have to like every one of them. Some of us do shitty things. That's a percentage of every group and we have to be able to speak out against actual shit humans of every single type that exists.

I don't people that need to leave a conversation but I do expect responses to actual things said not what is predicted to say.

I don't say this just for the way I speak and communicate. There are many people who struggle to communicate well the thoughts and feelings they feel. Perhaps they don't know your language very well. I'm very given to find some way a phrase or word can be used differently than I've ever heard it used before. I've also seen immigrants with poor language skills get hated on for using expressions they hear without fully understanding them. It's taught me to try to see the literal meaning of words spoken to me. And it's also made me extremely pedantic when I'm simply trying to be cautious and specific with my words.

I may have many ignorant ideas left to discover and examine. It's almost certain that I do.

I believe in giving people the chance to express or explain themselves. I also believe in giving people enough rope to hang themselves.

If you are not harming yourself and other people it's none of my business. If you are only harming yourself and no one else, I'm less decided.

Situations matter. Context matters. Intent matters, Consequences matter

Let people be who they are, if you find the aren't your people then you at least learned something you probably needed to know.

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[-] mycodesucks@lemmy.world 33 points 6 days ago

...but I can't see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

[-] _cnt0@sh.itjust.works 28 points 6 days ago

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

New achievement unlocked: trans Sith

Who's going to draw Darth Maulina?

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[-] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 15 points 6 days ago

Ooo I wanna try

I support Trans people but this coffee shop this Trans lady in town opened, her coffee is sour. Will someone please teach her to make coffee so supporting her doesn't taste bad?

How was that? Also why does my autocarrot capitalize Trans? Is it like Black when referring to identifiers? The Chicago manual of style didn't prepare me for this

[-] Baggie@lemmy.zip 9 points 6 days ago

Sure, but you've also unveiled an implicit bias there.

It's like saying the person was black. You didn't need to, it has no bearing on the story. It shows that something about that particular characteristic had an effect on the situation for you, even subconsciously.

It's not the hugest deal, it might not even be negative. I catch myself doing it sometimes, we all have stuff that was built into us that we don't know is there.

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[-] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 10 points 6 days ago

I support trans people, but half of you have the naming convention of a 19th century boarding school novel or a Star Wars EU background charact who inexplicably has a book series that would fit surprisingly well a Warhammer 40k chaos novel.

[-] RedWeasel@lemmy.world 20 points 6 days ago

, but I don’t know why I should need to say it. What is wrong with this world?

[-] Squirrelanna@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 6 days ago

I support trans people but who gave them the right to be so cool?

[-] BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world 10 points 6 days ago

“I support trans people butt.”

If that is the whole sentence, we’re fine.

[-] Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca 13 points 6 days ago

I do, however, support the butts of trans people.

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[-] will_steal_your_username@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 6 days ago

Let me make this clear. A lot of you are missing the point.

If you support trans rights and you support someones identity, but you maybe don't support a trans billionaire as mentioned by one commenter, then that's but "I support trans people, but". That's just supporting trans people.

If your support for someones identity or rights is conditional then that would be the problem. Phrases like the one in the comic is often made when saying something controversial and invalidating, like only supporting some trans people or thinking it's okay to misgender certain trans people.

[-] M137@lemmy.today 9 points 6 days ago

I support trans people, but I'm also ok with non-trans people and anyone between and otherwise!

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this post was submitted on 12 May 2026

469 points (88.4% liked)

Trans Memes

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