this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2023
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politics

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Here's a pro-Palestinian argument I find compelling. Israelis like to talk up and down how much they love peace. They say fine, there's settlements eating up the west bank, and a siege on the Gaza strip, and all of that, but how is that justification for violence? Peace is better than war! We love peace! Let us have peace. Palestinians find this laughable: first you kill and conquer, then with the boot comfortably on the neck you talk about peace? There can be no peace without justice.

I don't know if I agree with the conclusion all the way, but it certainly is a compelling argument. And I find that it is compelling as it applies across the board geopolitically. Too many times "peace, peace" is used as a rallying cry in support of whatever bully already used their power to tread, create facts on the ground and declare fait accompli. You hear the same about Ukraine: how immoral it is of Zelensky and Biden to insist on war where it would be so much more peaceful of them to accept what Russia has taken by force and seek a diplomatic solution. Anyone who supports the push to undo the partial conquest of Ukraine is therefore, by definition, argued to be a bloodthirsty warmonger.

That's not how the world works, or should work. Conquest and bloodshed is not a game of tag, for agents to escalate at their leisure and then shout "time out" when they are done extracting value from it. In accepting such a "humanitarian" point of view we maybe choose peace now for the people embroiled in the current conflict, but choose bloody war for countless innocent souls in the future who will come under the baleful eye of some geopolitical bully or robber baron who will inevitably reason, "we live in a world where I can go in, slaughter, conquer and philander, then when I've had enough and it seems things are turning against me, I shall weep that peace is preferable to war, and the world will listen". This is not an endorsement of an endless cycle of revenge, but it is an endorsement of the idea that nations should be allowed to retaliate against acts of war in ways that make the original act, in retrospect, not worthwhile. In civil society we have courts for exactly this purpose.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The reason is right there in the article, but glossed over. Th US UN Ambassador complained of no inclusion of Israel's right to defense. This is a reference to Article 51 of the UN Charter which reads:

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.

Basic stuff.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Obviously, all those other countries can’t read and didn’t know what they were voting on. Was it all an elaborate plan to make the US look bad on the world stage? Or maybe America just throws it’s weight around and does what it wants. Then, justifies it after the fact. Kind of like your comment. Basic stuff.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Obviously every country deserves the rights in the UN Charter except for Israel is closer to what you mean.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The bombing and forced migration of a captive civilian population is not self defense. It is the textbook definition of genocide.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How would you deal with Hamas? I know what you don't want to do, but what would you do given Hamas uses human shields. Would you try to get those shields to move?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Maybe improve the the material conditions of the average Palestinian with an influx of money to make Hamas obsolete?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This will not stop Hamas or Israel

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The other option is if one side becomes extinct.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s the only thing that will stop both.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

War is immenat. Promises are dependant on long term goals.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If Blackrock went into Gaza and invested into a bank for the people of Palestine. This war would end real quick.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You sound like you actively want war

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I actively understand reality

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Keep telling yourself that! Youd take the word of a US diplomat over the combined voices of the rest of the international community. You must understand very little indeed

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

The rest of the international community ...

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would understand that Hamas is a symptom of the repression and poverty of Palestinians, and endeavour towards a diplomatic two state solution.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That is the same as saying al Qaeda was a symbol of oppression. It's not true.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Hamas and al Qaeda are not equivalent. One is the democratically represented governent of a people. However unpalatable their motives, they must be taken seriously, because they are the only game in town. Ignoring them, as Israel and the Western governments have, will lead them resorting to violence to be heard.

Al Qaeda are fringe radicals committed to religious war. They will always choose violence, and there is no point negotiating with them.

Conflating the two is a mistake, rooted in ignorance.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh? And when was the last time Hamas was elected?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

More often than Palestinians have been able to vote for the Israeli leadership, i.e. never.

"Khaled Mashaal, its leader, has publicly affirmed the movement's readiness to accept the borders of 1967. When Hamas won a majority in the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, Haniyeh, the then president-elect, sent messages both to George W. Bush and to Israel's leaders, asking to be recognized and offering a long-term truce (hudna), along the 1967 border lines. No response came."

"In November 2011, Hamas leader Khaled Mishal made an agreement with Mahmoud Abbas in Cairo, in which he committed to respecting the 1967 borders."

"In February 2012, according to the Palestinian authority, Hamas forswore the use of violence. Evidence for this was provided by an eruption of violence from Islamic Jihad in March 2012 after an Israeli assassination of a Jihad leader, during which Hamas refrained from attacking Israel. "Israel—despite its mantra that because Hamas is sovereign in Gaza it is responsible for what goes on there—almost seems to understand," wrote Israeli journalists Avi Issacharoff and Amos Harel, "and has not bombed Hamas offices or installations".

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

Of course there should be more elections in Palestine. But there should be a Palestine first, something that Israel's actions are not facilitating.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

In other words, Hamas has never been elected.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don’t put words in my mouth and try to address the article in the post.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Then why not write the article into humanitarian pause proposal?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don’t know what you mean, I didn’t write the article.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The article refers to Article 51 of the UN charter, which I quoted. You don't seem to think it matters. To member nations of the UN it matters very much. Why wasn't article 51 included? Because it is a right denied by those that wrote theproposal.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I get what you’re saying now. And I think it wasn’t included because the resolution deals with humanitarian aid not _self defense _ . The fact that it wasn’t included is just an excuse for the US to vote no. Why didn’t the US introduce a new resolution with that language included? Because it gives them plausible deniability.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It doesn't work that way. You can't ask for a pause once Article 51 is invoked, and it was. It's not up to the US to write proper declarations for others. I don't see them denying anything, they in essence vetoed it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your crybully appeals to procedure are deeply unserious. The US have obviously vetoed a humanitarian measure intended to help over a million civilians.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I know that's what you want to promote, but that's not what the ambassador said.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What I'm "promoting" is the analysis provided by top humanitarian organisations:

'"Once again the U.S. cynically used their veto to prevent the U.N. Security Council from acting on Israel and Palestine at a time of unprecedented carnage," said Human Rights Watch'

What you are promoting is pure spin. You cannot possibly be so naive, so you must be deliberately obtuse.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Rather than your spin, I actually read the article. Saw what was quoted, pointing out what it meant.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@TokenBoomer I agree with this. As well as being a bit off topic, quoting chapter and verse of the UN charter in every resolution would be redundant.

It's already in the charter.

It's not normally a requisite for resolutions and making it an excuse not to sign seems disingenuous to me.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The US also blocked an independent investigation into the bombing of the hospital

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I did not know that. I wonder why? 💭