I think Lemmy has a problem with history in general, since most people on here have degrees/training in STEM. I see a lot of inaccurate “pop history” shared on here, and a lack of understanding of historiography/how historians analyze primary sources.

The rejection of Jesus’s historicity seems to be accepting C S Lewis’s argument - that if he existed, he was a “lunatic, liar, or lord,” instead of realizing that there was nothing unusual about a messianic Jewish troublemaker in Judea during the early Roman Empire.

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[–] 32 points 10 months ago (9 children)

scholars agree that a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth existed in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea in the 1st century AD.

But,

There is no scholarly consensus concerning most elements of Jesus's life as described in the Christian and non-Christian sources.

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    [–] 32 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    ...there was nothing unusual about a messianic Jewish troublemaker in Judea during the early Roman Empire.

    I bet he was a member of the Judean People's Front.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (20 children)

    Because of the destruction of the Temple and the Judean rebellion there were probably a lot of messianic figures.

    Jesus is just the one who achieved the necessary memetic virulence to be remembered.

    Saul/Paul definitely helped this.

    ETA: Also, stories attributed to Jesus may have happened to other messianic preachers.

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    [–] 22 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    As you indicated, this isn't an unpopular opinion in the wider world. There are records outside of Christian scripture that mention Jesus. No legitimate historians doubt that he existed.

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    [–] 20 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    It's quite possible, but the waters are muddied since every legendary facet was treated as fact, so the historical record is relatively less reliable given how much of it was manipulated in the name of faith.

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Celsus, a second century author and critic of Christianity, did not make the claim that Jesus did not exist. Early Roman and Jewish critics of Christianity did not make the claim that Jesus did not exist. Instead, their claims were that he was the son of a Roman soldier (no virgin birth) and that his miracles were attributable to the same common magic that everyone believed in at that time.

    If I were writing in 170 CE, and wanted to prove that Christianity was false because Jesus was made up, then I would probably say that.

    Historians are aware of the fact that texts can be altered or manipulated or untrue. That’s part of the process of reading a primary source - thinking critically about what your source is saying, what biases they might have, and yes, if there were alterations or manipulations. There is ample study and linguistic analysis to determine those kinds of changes.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago

    I mean... maybe. He was writing about events 150 years ago in another country. He may not have had direct knowledge of them. Think about how contentious history can be today with the benefit of modern documentary evidence, professional historians, etc. and think about how uncertain things under such distance would be back then.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I don't think most serious scholars would swear that a Jesus existed at that time and place, but would say that it is much more likely than not based on the confirming evidence from outside of the Christian faith. At some point you need to decide how much evidence is enough for any ancient topic. There's no particular reason that I've found credible enough to convince me that there WASN'T a historical figure there, even though I absolutely refuse to accept any magic or miracles.

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    [–] 17 points 10 months ago

    I've always understood historical Jesus as a concession, and not a reflection of confirmed existence.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (13 children)

    What Jesus are they talking about? That needs to be defined first. Not the one depicted in the bible that’s for sure.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Have you heard about this dude named Brian?

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    [–] 12 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Hmm... let me get this straight.

    Your unpopular opinion™ is that someone named Jesus may have existed around the same time that all the stories about Jesus Christ of Nazareth were written?

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Joseph Smith was real too. Why should anyone care

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    [–] 10 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    People think that if it's not recorded, it didn't happen. That line of thinking ignores that entropy of historical documents. Records are lost in fires, floods, looting, improper care, and more. There is also the issue of conflicting information from different sources. Is the document written by Ancient Person A about Ancient Event correct or is it Ancient Person B's version correct.

    STEM people are trained with principles that are consider absolute until a paradigm shift happens.

    It's why historians have the 5 C's: context, change over time, causality, complexity, and contingency.

    The profession what would under historical evidence and historical thinking would be lawyers. Lawyers get cases all the time were you don't have direct evidence. For example, it's a murder case. There is no murder weapon and no eye witness. The victim was found with multiple stab wounds. There's a suspect in custody.

    How do lawyers prove the suspect did the murder? Lawyers bring in collaborative evidence, such as: the suspect was seen with the victim before the murder, the suspect was seen in the area after the estimated time of death, the suspect had blood on their shirt, the suspect had a motive, etc.

    To circle back to Jesus. There is no fundamental law of physics nor experiment to prove Jesus. Historians have to apply the five C's to prove the existence of Jesus. Collaborating documents, events, archeological evidence, carbon dating of physical evidence, etc.

    Of course as soon as religion is mentioned, people's biases go into overdrive.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    STEM people are trained with principles that are consider absolute until a paradigm shift happens.

    That's inaccurate at the very least for scientists. Scientists are trained to test and retest everything. We tend to give them names like "positive controls" when we run experiments on things we're pretty sure are going to work, but we still test them.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] [S] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Why do we care about history in general?

    It provides us with some patterns in human behavior, things that cannot really be studied in a lab. You could approach early Christianity as a way to better understand mass movements, or the different coping strategies of an oppressed/conquered people. You could read the text of the New Testament and ask yourself why these ideas were appealing and what that might say about human nature.

    As part of the study of ideas, Christianity is a really interesting expression of how Hellenistic thought mixed with Judaism. There’s a reason a lot of Neoplatonists were Christian.

    The early conflicts with Judaism as Christianity developed its own identity have pretty far reaching impacts, with the death of Jesus being placed on all Jews and being used to justify atrocities to this current day.

    Or, as a guy that thinks about the Roman Empire at least a couple times a day, it’s a great window into the experience of a backwater Roman province that eventually revolted and was absolutely crushed.

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    [–] 10 points 10 months ago

    Saying Jesus existed but biblical events didn’t happen is meaningless. And since we know the bible is full of crap, it doesn’t really matter if a Jesus existed or not. That specific fairy tale Jesus is made up. Maybe it is a dramatization of real events, maybe it is a mix of stories and legends about several different people, maybe it was fabricated, it doesn’t really matter. Saying “Jesus existed” is just feeding the apologists, and there are so many Christian historians than I cannot take claims like that seriously.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    There is a lot of historical evidence that a lot of historical figures claiming to be the second coming of the messiah existed at the time. Jesus was just the most popular one. He’s the crème de la crème of messianic figures of the time. That’s all.

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    [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] [S] 5 points 10 months ago

    The “evidence” for Atlantis is Plato’s Timaeus and Critias, which is pretty clear in context to be a myth Plato is using to make a philosophical point. He’s not claiming it is historical, and it connects to Plato’s ideal of a “Noble Lie.”

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  • [+] 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (8 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago*

    UsefulCharts just released a youtube video on the topic. The argument is basically "the earliest documents referencing Jesus aren't explicit that he was real but on the other hand it wasn't long before he was treated as real". Basically there wasn't a lot of time for myth to be reinterpreted as history.

    Personally I'm ambivalent, Sherlock Holmes wasn't real but he may have had a real effect on criminology. People may confuse his historicity. Compared to Houdini.

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    [–] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Just want to add a couple of things

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There were no extra-Biblical references to Pontius Pilate until 1961. Now imagine how much documentation must have surrounded the Roman prefect of Judea. All of it gone, except for a bit of limestone.

    Also an argument (I think I heard it from Hitchens, but not sure): We know that the Nativity story is bogus because the Census that was supposed to bring Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem is anachronistic. And we know that it's important that Jesus be from Bethlehem (City of David) because the Messiah was prophesized to be from there.

    So the question is: if were making up Jesus from whole cloth, why not just make him Jesus of Bethlehem? Why go to the trouble unless Jesus of Nazareth was something people were already familiar with?

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    [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    Chiming in here with no degrees or STEM training to say that I exist, but it's unlikely there will be any record of me in a couple thousand years. Though I haven't given the whole water to wine thing a go so don't count me out just yet.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    Downvote for stating "facts" without sources.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Jesus doesn't have to be a single historical person.

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