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submitted 3 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 97 points 3 weeks ago
[-] [email protected] 19 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, but their job is like reeeally hard!! They deserve it. /s

[-] [email protected] 13 points 3 weeks ago

CEO is paid for from the for profit. The majority of costs are engineering salaries for Firefox.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago

Slightly more than 1% of their annual revenue.

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[-] [email protected] 56 points 3 weeks ago

Oh look we're back to the "open source software can't survive on its own without gobs of money and million-dollar CEOs wah wah wah" again.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 3 weeks ago

Wtf you on about?

The grand majority of all costs for Firefox are in engineering salaries. And there is no million dollar CEO relating to the nonprofit's expenses, that CEO is paid for from funds from the for profit organization.

Browsers are CRAZY expensive to build and maintain. And teams of engineers are crazy expensive.

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[-] [email protected] 19 points 3 weeks ago

Fiy, the Mozilla Foundation is one of the highest rates charities on Charity Navigator.

They don't always make the best choices as far as product direction, but as a charity, they are quite respectable.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

You say that as if we're lying. Mozilla's entire revenue is from the search deal. If it goes away, you can kiss the entire company goodbye. Not saying that OSS is inherently unable to survive or anything like that.

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[-] [email protected] 37 points 3 weeks ago

Well goodbye mozilla it wasn't great knowing you. Hopefully you are able to fuck over the devs and golden parachute your c-suite bastards one last time.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 3 weeks ago

Maybe, but what are the odds of a fork taking off? It was started under the codename "Phoenix" and went by "Firebird" for some time before becoming "Firefox".

Maybe it's time for a fork to rise from the ashes and take off...

[-] [email protected] 23 points 3 weeks ago

Any fork will die a slow and painful death of it can't get the necessary funding for project management and maintainer salaries.

It will also dwindle, hard, towards irrelevancy.

In world where the only viable browser is one owned and operated by Google.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

I'm not that pessimistic, development for Ladybird seems to be going well and those crazy people are building it from scratch rather than basing it on Chromium or Firefox. There's also Servo. When Mozilla dies the forks will hang on for a while then we'll have alternatives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2YGzaaDXgQ

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I'm familiar with them.

These are projects sitting years, maybe even a decade, away from maturity. IF web standards and capabilities don't change at all over the next 5-10 years.

Hopefully that puts this into perspective. These are really cool projects, but without a massive influx of engineering effort and organization, they will likely be perpetually, hopelessly, behind the standard rate of change required of browsers. Nevermind meeting the current standards of performance, security, observability, ecosystem, user and developer experience.

It's always good to check in on these projects yearly, see how it's going, see if they are accelerating or slowing down. Eventually one of them will take off, and potentially leech resources from other similar projects.


Though, the nature of FOSS is that 1000 people will work on 200 different projects all trying to do the same thing, instead of combining and organizing efforts to go after the same unified goal.

This isn't really a statement of fault but rather a statement of reality. Without dedicated full-time organization, this is usually how scattered resources solve problems. Which is a core problem here in that dedicated organization to rapidly grow the engineering effort for a particular project usually requires funding and full-time employees. To both market it to engineers as an interesting project, mature documentation and DevX, mature the onboarding experience for devs, and to handle the organizational aspects of distributing said work.

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[-] [email protected] 13 points 3 weeks ago

The fork that takes off will be the one where the Firefox devs move to. Which isn't predictable. We could make our own foundation, without the blackjack and hookers (cause based on how mozilla was doing things it sure seems like all they did), and make it more as a means for the devs to get paid for their work.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago

and before that it was Netscape

[-] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

I thought Netscape turned into Mozilla, which was different from Firebird

[-] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago

Correct. Firefox was a rewrite separate from the old Netscape/Mozilla SeaMonkey codebase.

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[-] [email protected] 24 points 3 weeks ago

Imagine how much open source software could be developed for $500 million/year. What the fuck has firefox done?

[-] [email protected] 17 points 3 weeks ago

They've paid their CEO.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 3 weeks ago

500 million would pay for almost 5000 full time developers.

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[-] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

Try to get MORE money so that they can pay their CEO.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 3 weeks ago

Why can't they just use the Wikipedia model? That should bring in enough to cover development and operating costs.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 3 weeks ago

Because a browser is several orders of magnitudee more complex than a website.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

Wikimedia is even using php still. Firefox created Rust I believe, in order to advance.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago

Rust was originally created by a Mozilla dev as a hobby project. Also, the Mozilla rust team was fired in 2020 during a "restructuring".

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[-] [email protected] 17 points 3 weeks ago

Its interesting they don't have all the services Proton does. I'd pay them for a email and VPN combo.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 5 days ago)
[-] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Pre buy out, Opera was kind of moving towards what Proton is doing now.

Now Vivaldi sets to continue that trajectory.

It's weird that Mozilla didn't. If they do it now they'll look like copycats, and they've burnt a lot of supporters with their TOS boogaloo it would take a lot from them to claw back some of those supporters

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago

Except it isn't. And we know it isn't because the amount you spend on Firefox vs the rest of Mozilla is peanuts

[-] [email protected] 22 points 3 weeks ago

Not even remotely true, this is a myth. Most of what they spend is on development, operations, and legal. They publish their 990 online which gives the breakdown. IIRC the foundation gets like 2%.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago

How much active development does a browser engine need? If Mozilla died would I quickly be finding a larger chunk of websites that aren't supported? Because as it sits, Firefox feels like one of the most corporate pieces of open source software I use daily, and I need to know just how tragic it would be if Mozilla died.

[-] [email protected] 26 points 3 weeks ago

If Mozilla died would I quickly be finding a larger chunk of websites that aren’t supported?

Likely yes, as Google will keep enshittifying the web unless stopped by antitrust or whatever. Which isn't looking so likely.

[-] [email protected] 17 points 3 weeks ago

A ton. Mozilla is already behind on all kinds of miscellaneous less used standards implementations compared to Chrome AFAIK. On top of that there are security fixes needed monthly and realistically you need to be able to push emergency patches within 48 hours or less (really 1/4 or 1/2 that) or people are going to flee because they got cryptolockered because of you.

How quickly would sites be unsupported? Hard to say. Most likely large chunks of the internet would start blocking Mozilla user agents as an out of date security threat for their userbase before it actually ran into actual implementation problems. The problem would be that, websites and services no longer even bothering to try to support Mozilla and making changes that break things, and of course security holes and exploits which would likely eventually lead to no-click complete computer compromises and other very bad things. Once it falls far enough behind on standards a lot of sites will block it for that reason because they don't want bug reports or to spend money chasing down an issue potentially caused by an out of date piece of software.

Google or whoever owns Chrome would keep pushing new web standards at a fast pace to kill and bury any attempts to keep Firefox running. At that point there's nothing really stopping them closed sourcing large parts of Chrome to kill privacy forks and lock down control of the web which most big websites would be fine with as Google's interest is in getting through ads and preventing the end user from control over their own computer in favor of the interests of the website owner.

It would be apocalyptic potentially for what remains of the open web and user freedom.

[-] [email protected] 15 points 3 weeks ago

In the old days, a few motivated nerds could write a browser. Now all you can realistically do is take a browser engine and build some user interface around it. That what most "alternative browsers" do - tweaking or repackaging.

These days, a browser is like it's own operating system with sandboxing, various Interfaces to periphery devices, hardware acceleration for GPU and all the bells and whistles taken for granted now.

I'd say that imagining it to be on a scale similar to working on the Linux Kernel is more right than wrong.

So we definitely very much want Firefox to survive, or it will be much worse than the Linux/Mac/Windows trilemma. Microsoft Edge is chromium under the hood too. Any many desktop "apps".

[-] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

It requires a lot, you can try running an older version of a browser to see

Or look at all the memes people made about up to date chrome being better than out of date explorer

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago

Hopefully Mozilla won't die until Ladybird or Servo is ready 😅

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[-] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago
  1. Finish off Firefox
  2. Break up Chrome
  3. Profit
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this post was submitted on 05 May 2025
217 points (98.2% liked)

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