Is it technically possible that posts or comments still get downvote-brigaded by an instance that is technically defederated from the instance of the OP?

So let’s say instance A and B are defederated from each other, but both are federated with instance C. After a user from A posts something on C does every user from B get to downvote everything?

I’m trying to determine if the Fediverse has recourse against an r/TheDonald scenario, where one toxic element is allowed to flourish for too long and - in the case with the other site - eventually takes over and destroys everything.

If this debate has been had somewhere else, please feel free to point me there, otherwise I’d love to understand this better.

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[–] OpenStars@piefed.social 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

If it helps to add: ditch the analogy about the Fediverse being like email, for the level of understanding that you are seeking. Instead, consider it like a bunch of ships (hehe, free traders and... otherwise), each passing messages around.

When A posts to C, A knows about it, but more importantly everything connected to C also knows about it too. A copy of the message has been shared with all the partners. So yeah, thus B knows about it too, despite the lack of direct connection to A.

Although then when B sends C the downvote action, A is not told, bc of the defederation. So everything connected to C and B knows about the downvotes, with the exception of instances that have disabled downvotes entirely, and those who ignore all messages coming from B, plus those who likewise ignore all messages coming from A.

Where it starts to get tricky is that defederation does not have to be symmetrical, although ideally it always would be. In theory, and it has most definitely happened, messages sent from one instance to another can definitely be influenced by an asymmetrical pattern of defederations.

I wouldn't worry as much about Alt-Right conservatives here - they tried but couldn't get a foothold, and after being defederated from all instances eventually collapsed internally, and went to Truth Social.

Here, we ironically have much more to worry about from the Alt-Left that uses identical patterns of behaviors, just ostensibly on the "left".

Just use the search function and sort by Top All Time and you'll find everything you need. But if it helps, here's my own (successful) Petition to defederate from hexbear.net on Discuss.Online, making that USA instance safer to recommend to aid people fleeing Reddit. You can click the links and read with your own eyes examples of those admins being caught lying to other admins, and one case of a mod tripling down in saying how they wanted to kill someone for a simple misunderstanding of a scenario in a game (although do such details matter in the slightest?) - that one was on lemmy.ml though. And btw in case it helps, How do I block users from an instance of my choice? (TLDR: it's super difficult, not really entirely possible without jumping through some rather hefty hoops, but with enough effort or sacrifice of freedom of other choices it is possible).

[–] kingofras@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That’s a nice analogy.

I wouldn't worry as much about Alt-Right conservatives here - they tried but couldn't get a foothold, and after being defederated from all instances eventually collapsed internally, and went to Truth Social. Here, we ironically have much more to worry about from the Alt-Left that uses identical patterns of behaviors, just ostensibly on the "left".

I’d love to learn more about this story. Who is alt-left? How do they behave?

[–] OpenStars@piefed.social 2 points 6 days ago

The Alt-Left is my own phrase for people who act identically to the Alt-Right (as described in e.g. Innuendo Studios' The Alt Right Playbook - gish gallop, didoing, pyramid thinking, controlling the conversation, etc.), just on the "left" side. The more traditional term is the (much more?) pejorative "tankies". There are several communities that discuss these events - one entirely dedicated to tankies in particular is !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works, but as the abuses are rampant you will also see it in !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com, !fediverselore@lemmy.ca, etc.

This graphic depiction may also help:

This will explain SO MUCH why so many people are site-wide banned from communities that they have never even so much as heard of, citing a rule that makes no mention of anything that their supposed offense is. Once you realize that the reason that Lemmy was created was bc Reddit banned the code developers, you will see why they created their own Reddit 2.0, which in many ways is somehow even more authoritarian than Reddit itself is. e.g. here we have a modlog, but there is no modmail, nor a notification of a moderation event, and the modlog simply says it was done by a "mod", so you have no idea who to ask for clarification, or to appeal the decision - all you are left with is the "choice" to go somewhere else (or...?).

Mind you, instance owners are very free, and mods likewise have a great deal of power subject only to instance admins, but individual users not so much - not even the right to be notified that your content was removed (sounds similar to shadowbanning doesn't it?).

OTOH, software is software, and so we are here as well, trying to find some way to talk that isn't owned by a corporate entity.

Here's a highly relevant post: https://lemmy.world/post/21055894, see also it + the comments in the OG cross-post it was from (its first link).

[–] Geodad@lemm.ee 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I still don't understand why I should care about the karma system. I didn't care when I was on redditt. People must generally like my comments, because I was net positive last time I checked.

Why does it bother you?

[–] kingofras@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

I’m the same, I don’t care about the karma aspect, I do care when it is strategically used by hidden interests to keep certain content ranked lower and push content they like up.

[–] ptz@dubvee.org 28 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

So let’s say instance A and B are defederated from each other, but both are federated with instance C. After a user from A posts something on C does every user from B get to downvote everything?

Yes. Instance A will not see the downvotes from instance B, but instance C would. Also, anyone federated with all 3 would see the downvotes from B for content posted by someone on A.

The only defense is that mods and admins can see the votes and, if something like that is suspected, they can take action (ban the accounts, mods report the behavior to admins, consider defederating from instance B, etc). Seeing a pattern of mass-downvotes only from a particular instance would be considered a red flag for most admins.

This scenario is less likely than what we see in practice, though, since the overhead to create an instance and the "eggs all in one basket" make it easy to take action against (admins would quickly coordinate to block that instance). Tools like Fediseer would also be used to censure that instance and bring its behavior to light.

In the wild, it's far more common for them to just spin up a bunch of accounts across "good" instances (particularly those without registration applications) and coordinate.

One example of that: https://dubvee.org/post/1878799

[–] kingofras@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Cool, I think I understand it better now.

So an r/TheDonald situation on Lemmy would effectively mean this community can exist forever until it is just lonely sitting by itself defederated from every other instance in the lemmyverse (fediverse?). So it is impossible to basically shut something like that down on a global scale, only to North Korea it. (At which point, as the analogy goes, they are forced to send their soldiers to help with the Russians and find a way to make trouble that way)

I suppose that’s a fair price to pay for decentralisation. Thanks for the responses.

[–] ptz@dubvee.org 10 points 1 week ago

Basically, yeah. Not all admins would defederate, so they probably wouldn't be completely isolated off, but they would definitely have a very reduced audience for their, uh, antics.

[–] HarkMahlberg@kbin.earth 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

In the wild, it's far more common for them to just spin up a bunch of accounts across "good" instances (particularly those without registration applications) and coordinate.

In 2023, this happened to a ton of unsecured Misskey instances who then proceeded to spam most of the Fediverse. It was just a troll in reality, but revealed that the Fediverse is no less vulnerable to coordinated, sophisticated attacks (and with how politically minded it is, there's plenty of incentive for nation state actors to do so).

[–] ptz@dubvee.org 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yup, and I've probably still got a lot of those instances on my federation blocklist.

One of my ongoing gripes with the fediverse is that people run instances with little/no oversight and leave registrations wide open. It's just irresponsible to have open registrations when you don't have an admin available 24/7.

[–] HarkMahlberg@kbin.earth 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

On the one hand, one of the things we often tout about the Old Internet was the ability for anyone to run their own website, forum, blog, etc, free from corporatization. On the other hand, running your website is a responsibility on your part, and in the convenience-focused Internet we have now, seems to be a forgotten lesson.

On the third, mutant hand growing out of our back, fedi software should be designed with security-by-default, i.e. no open registration, to prevent the forgotten lesson from being a huge problem.

[–] ptz@dubvee.org 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

For a website, forum, blog, etc, at least the damage caused by poor security would be limited to just that platform. Unfortunate, but contained. With federation, that poor security becomes everyone else's problem as well. Hence my gripe lol.

It's been so long since I setup my instance, I honestly don't recall what the default "Registration mode" is.

I'm but a small drop in the larger fediverse, but I do develop a frontend for Lemmy. I actually coded the "Registration" section in the admin panel to nag you if the config is insecure. lol

It will still let you do it, just with a persistent nag message on that page.

[–] LostXOR@fedia.io 5 points 1 week ago

AFAIK yes, users from instance B can downvote the post, but the downvotes won't federate to instance A, so only users on B and C will be able to see them.