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submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

Forgive me if this was addressed, but I don't think it was. During a previous struggle session in a statement from the mod team something was said along the lines of "the he/hims aren't beating the allegations".

Personally I do not think this is acceptable, to me this is just using "he/hims" as a proxy for saying men. No one in IRL settings uses "he/hims" as a term to describe people who use him/him pronouns, no one is categorized into a grouping in general based on their pronouns as it is just a preferred pronoun not a characteristic like gender identity.

If there is misogyny going on, just say there is misogyny among users, their pronouns do not change the content of what they said, if someone with he/him pronouns and someone with she/her pronouns typed the exact same degrading thing about a woman, their pronouns would not factor into whether what they said was misogynistic or not.

I am bringing this up as it seems like people in the mod chat are still using "he/hims" to refer to people who have indicated they prefer he/him as their pronouns, you might think this is progressive because you are not directly making a gender identity assumption, but I believe this is in fact reactionary and you are just using pronouns as a proxy for the gender that is most commonly associated with the given pronoun i.e. men in the case of saying "he/hims".

I think this is at least counterproductive and at most harmful, if knowing someone's gender identity is relevant or useful, it should just be asked for.

The point of having pronouns is to accommodate and to treat people with respect and dignity about what they prefer to be called. Using pronouns as a proxy for gender identity undermines this as, treating someone with dignity would involve asking them directly what their gender identity is, not making judgments or assumptions based off of their preferred pronouns.

The only thing that having he/him pronouns indicates is that the person prefers to be referred to with the pronouns he and him. They are just personal pronouns, they are not equivalent to an ethnicity, a gender identity, a gender expression, etc.

If someone with he/him pronouns seems like they are misogynistic, that may have something to do with their gender identity, but it has nothing to do with their pronouns. It is not fair nor accurate to make assumptions of gender identity from pronouns and I think this should be avoided.

This is not to undermine any concerns about misogyny, but misogyny can and should be fought against regardless of what pronouns are involved in any instance of it.

Thanks for reading this, please know all I want is for pronouns and gender identity not to be conflated and to create a safe and respectful space for all users. And I think a good way to work towards this would be to stop using "he/hims", "she/hers", "they/thems", etc. as a way to refer to people who specify they would like to be referred to as those pronouns.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago

I do think referring to people as "he/hims" is dehumanizing and weird like referring to people as "they/thems" is dehumanizing but also think gender oppressed people should be allowed to refer to their oppressors, especially in regards to misogyny.

An easier solution would be to adopt terms like "misogyny affected" and "misogyny exempted" similar to how "transmisogyny affected" (TMA) and "transmisogyny exempted" (TME) are used in discussions of privilege and bigotry in trans spaces.

Im not a trans femme though so if any trans femmes think me suggesting these terms is inappropriate, please let me know stalin-stressed

[-] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago

It's also just bullshit in the situation. It wasn't just a bunch of "he/hims" and saying it was is a lie. It wasn't a bunch of "he/hims" so it wasn't even applicable, which is what got people pissed initially and now we're at some estranged discussion because mods keep deflecting. It's basically saying "everyone I disagree with is a man" (The user who says the "he/hims" obviously doesn't make the distinction of pronouns and gender). It's the thing we dunk on libs for "everyone I disagree with is a russian bot" but with leftist aesthetics.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the difference between preferred pronouns and gender identity in this sense. Saying "he/hims" to mean "people with male gender identity" makes sense to me on the surface. Aren't masculine pronouns for masculine people? Is it that some people use multiple sets of pronouns? Or I guess people who identify as gender fluid sometimes use he/him pronouns while not identifying as male? Not asking to contradict, just asking so I can better understand.

Edit: Thanks for taking the time to respond y'all! Makes total sense.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I don't think for everyone, he/him pronouns indicate being masculine or identifying as a man, I don't think that's a controversial thing to say. If that was the case people wouldn't bother referring to people with he/him pronouns as "he/hims" here they would just say men. I think that what you said about people who use multiple pronouns and people who identity as gender fluid, would fit cases of someone using he/him pronouns at various points, but not* identifying as a man.

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago

I get the impression that cishet men are allowed to post wack takes without consequences because of patriarchy, and queer people of other genders are allowed to post wack takes without consequences because of anti-patriarchy.

Sounds like people being allowed to post wack takes without consequences is the problem.

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[-] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

it's true that he/him pronouns do not mean someone (like me) is a man, or cis, or a cis man, and we should speak accordingly.

That said, there is a noticeable statistical correlation between he/him users and misogyny on his site. If I had to guess why: site polls indicate that most he/him users on hexbear identify as cis men, and just as white people tend to be more racist than average, cis men tend to be more misogynistic than average.

I do think we should find the language to talk about that somehow.

It's already difficult to talk about misogyny, here or anywhere. Just as part of white supremacy is white fragility and defensiveness, part of misogyny is male fragility and defensiveness, and it can lead to dogpiling, which can have a chilling effect. We're not gamergate-tier but I do see subtler shades of that behavior sometimes.

I think we need to strike a balance. When someone says something like "he/hims are not beating the allegations," we need to correct the language, but then listen to what the person is saying, make sure their effort to communicate still ultimately succeeds, without creating another barrier to talking about misogyny on this site.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

As one of the oldest users on this forum who has been active since the first week of chapo.chat, veteran of at least seven struggle sessions, and in the interest of preventing another struggle session from erupting, let me give all of you some advice here:

Like most AES countries, Hexbear is not democratic. Mods have dictatorial powers and will exercise them in the interest of keeping peace. Even if you don’t like them. Even if they are unfair at times. Even when there are questionable decisions being made. Even if it’s just a particular moderator who has an axe to grind with you.

You won’t be able to fight them. Don’t even try. Keep your heads down and learn not to cause any ruckus that might offend the mods, if you want to keep hanging out on this forum. Just let it go even if a particular grievance feels unjust. Trust me, you will have a much better time enjoying this site if you heed my advice here.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago

In any online community with management that you feel is terrible, your three options are:

  1. Find another online community.

  2. Worm your way into becoming an admin and orchestrating a palace coup against the mods and admins you hate.

  3. Spin up a million sock puppets and compartmentalize them so that the sock puppets never interact with each other.

Everything else is a waste of time.

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[-] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago
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this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2024
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