this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2024

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Neopronouns are not trolling (lemmy.blahaj.zone)

submitted 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (7 children)

Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.

Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.

Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.

Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 days ago (3 children)

As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.

I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.

Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 days ago

is there a definitive list of pronouns?

No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.

I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told

This is a good strategy :)

once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts

This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @[email protected] wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135

how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 days ago

You sound like you've got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It's not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you're not actively being a dickhead you probably don't have too much to worry about on that front.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

is there a definitive list of pronouns

Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It's just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They're essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what's considered women's work (cooking) and men's work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.

Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You're right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You're unfortunately entirely correct that it's a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that's its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don't use it online, the they effectively don't get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It's out of desperation to be validated in some way. It's a bummer, but I get it. I'm lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don't use my name online. But I'm absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 days ago

Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?

A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.

We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:

Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch

In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)

In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?

In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?

When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You don't need to use any pronouns to block and report.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 4 days ago (1 children)

In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise?

If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don't interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn't for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.

But even "attack helicopter" and the like... If you're not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn't a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.

So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn't a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (4 children)

The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.

Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion. I obviously cannot source other comments that may have been deleted or removed:

“it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it”

“My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general… I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.” Continued “(also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.”

“The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.”

And here are 10 modlog remarks by your instance’s mods pertaining to the contextual behavior of the same user. There are additional modlog remarks by mods of other instances to similar effect. Please do take a look through them all:

2x: Banned: reason: Trolling

Banned: reason: history of misgendering and encouraging suicide

4x Banned: reason: Encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment. Not Appealable

Banned: reason: encouraging suicide

Banned: reason: History of encouraging suicide

Removed Comment: reason: Advocating violence, encouraging suicide

Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned (edit: clarification: unbanned from the instance). As admin, have you scrutinized your users’ and mods’ listed concerns over this apparent repeat offender prior to now? Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions? I do not expect you to “sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy”, but do you distrust the acuity of your userbase and modteams over and over again? If the user is a troll, you are doing exactly what they want you to do; if the user is not a troll, many people have taken measures to avoid hostility from them. Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?

You will get trolls on this instance. You will get trolls anywhere online. It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.

I had already blocked this user who knows how long ago. Their behavior doesn’t affect me anymore. I’m also not part of a demographic that needs this instance. Go ahead and ban me for speaking out for those who do need this instance. But this user —and any other users whom the admin team shies away from calling trolls— they will affect the new people who come to this instance who do need a safe place, and those new users will be deterred from here by the hostility and unfettered trolls that are tolerated.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 days ago (5 children)

Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion.

None of that is "contextual behaviour". It's literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove "Using pronouns I don't like" as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.

Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned.

Drag was banned from 196 by community mods

Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions?

We have reports, a matrix channel and DMs.

Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?

I haven't seen evidence of other bad behaviour that warrants an instance ban. Drag has stirred up drama, deliberately so, and has received community bans as a result, and I support the rights of the community mods to make that choice. But I've seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I've seen many accusations of such, but I've not seen any evidence behind the accusations.

If I'm missing some, please drop me a DM or the like.

It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.

A queer instance that gatekeeps queer folk isn't hospitable, protective or empathic.

I am well aware that trolls can slip through and try and stir up drama. I believe that it's worth the risk, because the cost of gatekeeping gender diverse folks self expression isn't a price I'm willing to pay to be troll free. I'd rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago

take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙

and it's another reason why i love it here 💞

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 days ago

Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!

Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (6 children)

i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.

reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I don't get why so many people seem to be so pressed about drag. Like dawg, just ignore and move on. Like I have drag filtered or blocked or whatever you call it entirely because I just don't vibe with a fair bit of the content that's come across my feed from drag. Absolutely shine on you crazy diamond. It just ain't for me.

My personal feelings on neopronouns are irrelevant. I'm just gonna try to refer to people how they ask me to.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 days ago

I also blocked Drag. Not because I have any problems with using whatever pronouns a person wants, but because I found Drag insufferable.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 4 days ago

Thank you. it is mindboggling that supposed trans allies can tell people they aren't valid without seeing their hypocrisy.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 days ago (17 children)

For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.

We could:

Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users

Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.

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