this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2024
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Linux

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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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We've all heard it before: People claiming Linux isn't a viable alternative cause you can't run it without using the command line.

I decided to test that. Now there are several distros aimed at new users that have preinstalled GUI tools so you don't have to touch the Terminal. But I wanted to see if that's also possible on a distro not specifically aimed at fresh converts. The oldest distro with a large userbase, which a lot of people consider to be a "standard" Linux, is Debian, so default Debian with Gnome is what I'll use.

I consider "running an OS" to at least include booting it with full disk encryption, starting applications, connecting to a network, browsing the web, file management, installing updates and new software (both from the repos and third party sources), installing necessary drivers, setting up printing and scanning, and adjusting the looks and behaviour of the user interface.
So generally anything you'd be able to do on Windows without opening Powershell, CMD, Regedit or a text editor.

I guess I'm telling you nothing new when I say that you can install, boot, launch apps and browse the web on Debian without the command line.
It comes with a pre-installed software center, printer and scanner setup works out of the box from Gnome's settings.

Here's where it gets a little trickier: Scrolling on Firefox is rough, cause the preinstalled old version doesn't have Wayland support enabled. So you either have to enable Wayland support or install the Flatpak version of Firefox.
To enable Wayland, you have to write MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 into /etc/environment. But the file manager doesn't let you edit system files without starting it as root from the command line. To add an "edit as admin" entry to the context menu in Nautilus, you need the nautilus-admin package which isn't available in the software center. It can be installed with Synaptic, a pre-installed GUI frontend for apt. But you still need to edit a system text file, which goes against the spirit of this challenge.
The other option requires enabling Flatpak for the Software Center. You can do that by installing gnome-software-plugin-flatpak using synaptic, then heading over to https://flathub.org/setup/Debian to download the flathub repo file which can be installed with a double-click and a reboot.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros ship with a newer Firefox version and Flatpak support out of the box.

To install any compatible binary on your system (like the Universal Android Debloater, for example), just copy it to any place you like. Install the menu editor alacarte and use it to add a menu entry for the file. Now you can launch it from within Gnome by clicking on its icon or using the global search.

Another issue is that during the boot process, you're already presented with the command line running boot messages by you, and the password prompt for the disk decryption is also on the command line. Also, the 5 second Grub countdown is kind of annoying. To make this prettier, we need to install grub-customizer, launch it, set the grub countdown to 0 and add the word splash at the end of your kernel parameters in the settings. This activates the "boot-prettifier" plymouth which is pre-installed but not activated by default. Again, pushing the boundaries of this challenge.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros come with pretty plymouth boot enabled by default.

To enable the non-free nvidia Driver, you need to enable non-free software during the GUI installation or in the Software Center settings, then install nvidia-driver from Synaptic, and reboot.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros come with a one-click NVidia driver install

To install Steam from the Debian repos, you'd need to enable Multi-Arch first, which isn't possible without the command line. Using the Flatpak version is your other option.
Note: Some beginner-friendly distros handle this for you as soon as you install a package that depends on multi-arch

tl/dr: It's possible to run and administer Debian for standard tasks without touching the command line. It's just generally faster to use the terminal if you know what you're doing.
Distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Zorin or Pop!_OS (possibly also Manjaro which I have no experience with) remove the remaining roadblocks. The only time you'll always need the command line is to fix issues you have with help from other users, because it's much, much easier to just post the right terminal commands online than to guide you through whichever GUI you might be using.

Anyone who's ever followed a Windows troubleshooting guide knows what I'm talking about.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

Yeah my daily driver for awhile has been Debian stable. All the normal day to day tasks can very easily be accomplished with only gui tools. My CLI stuff is more or less limited to ssh access to other machines and some light docker tinkering.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I feel like Mint is the move if you never want to utilize the terminal. But while it can be intimidating initially, after using it, you'll grow to love it. Truly makes life way easier. I learned by first finding threads on my issues to copy and paste commands. After doing that enough you'll gain an understanding of the main commands pretty quick. Fedora is a great starter in my mind, as you can do everything through the GUI when first starting, but unlike Mint, you can still get nerdy with the terminal when you feel up to it. Using a VM is a solid option to learn the terminal without any risk, worst case just delete the VM and make another. But you'd have to mess up pretty thoroughly to need to do that in my experience. Fedora, or Nobara which is a gaming and media centric fork of Fedora, are amazing due to the ability to run great out of the box plus being able to dial in anything you want to alter for your needs down the road. Fedora's Software center allows you to add flatpak and snap packages, so it'll all be in one place. Fedora 40 makes NVIDIA drivers pretty easy to deal with too. But this is just my two cents, I'm curious to see what others recommend for you.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I had a situation where the updater didnt work at all so I had to go full debian, knew the steps luckily, and it was a pain.

Like manually searching for version nicknames and changing a textfile.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

In Fedora? I've had one or two issues with the updater if I postponed the updates for a while, yet sudo dnf update always fixed the issue. I feel like thats step one for terminal use really. It's also nice when it's done this way you typically don't need to reboot, unless it's kernel or driver updates.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Fedora always requires a reboot for big upgrades, not sure what these are specificslly, for stability, which makes sense.

But atomic doesnt, it goes on the live system in the background, pretty cool.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

It reaaaally depends. Say the person only needs a browser, once they or someone installs the OS, they can just go to firefox and get started doing whatever they do. If they want to play some games then they might need to learn how to get steam, wine, lutris and stuff installed. However, some distros like Bazzite has that installed. I guess it all depends what they want to do with the computer and how much they want to play around with it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Firefox and forks have Wayland support (MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1) by default since version 121 or so.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Yes but Debian still ships a version that doesn't.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I wish I could just go 10 minutes without using terminal.

I always think Linux caters to people with incredibly basic requirements such as a bit of web browsing, emails, and editing a document. And it obviously caters to total nerds like the kind of people who subscribe to the Linux section of Lemmy.

However, it really doesn’t cater well to the inbetweeners who want stuff a bit more advanced than what an iPad can do, it kind of just lumps them with a huge learning curve and says “get on with it”.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I didn't use early generation smart phones and was completely bewildered when I discovered apps often used swiping left/right to interact. No app I had used before ever indicated that was an option. I suggested adding indicators to an app to teach user but that was rejected as "everyone knows that".. It's easy when you know how.

As a nerd who subscribes to the Linux section of Lemmy; well done for everyone trying to learn something new. The learning never stops :')

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

I didn't use early generation smart phones and was completely bewildered when I discovered apps often used swiping left/right to interact. No app I had used before ever indicated that was an option. I suggested we should add indicators to our app to teach people but that was rejected because "everyone knows that". It's easy when you know how.

Oh it’s even worse when you did have experience with early smartphones. I’ve used Windows CE phones, Blackberrys, PalmOS phones, early Androids, and since 2015, iOS. None of them did things the same way, but all navigated using clickable objects on the screen. I was shocked when I had accidentally stumbled upon gestures. In 2017.

I’m still discovering new gestures, usually by accident. It’s becoming more intuitive, but only because I now know that it might be an option.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

OpenSUSE has YAST2-GUI GTK. Full GUI for everything, users, hardware review, even fiddling with kernel, services, or editting text config files via admin gui.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

Does Android count?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

That is very true. Good point.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

There are tons of things a distro needs to preconfigure for you to work like that.

It can absolutely work. Imagine:

  • atomic distro based on uBlue using KDE Plasma
  • a working ISO (lol)
  • it updates automatically when battery is okay and the network is not metered
  • the image uses :latest versions so version upgrades are automatic
  • flathub is preinstalled
  • install apps
  • manage flatpak permissions through KDE Settings
  • maybe use btrfs-assistant for some fancy backup and management stuff (but that is not preinstalled)

But for some stuff CLI is needed.

[–] bdonvr 4 points 4 months ago

Debian's great but not the best choice here.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

my first computer only had a command line

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

with certain distros the answer is a resounding "yes" with some others it's a "technically, yes" and with even others it's "good luck!"

UAC-style sudo prompts are are one of the most common issues i can think of. It's very poorly implemented in the distro i use.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

People try their hardest to make computers your friends. Don't be afraid to talk to them 😊

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Yes. Pretty much on all distros. Also its a very different feeling than when you do it on Windows. On linux its to do a specif desired task and it doesnt have that strange feeling of just running an obscure that you dont understand command like on Windows.

Keep it to Fedora, Opensuse, Ubuntu/Debian or Endevour. The first two are the bests.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You can definitely hammer a screw, but why would you?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I don’t think you really do anymore. I’d consider myself an experienced Linux user. I’ve been using it as a my desktop OS for over 20 years. I’ve also used Linux heavily through my career and am completely comfortable with the command line.

With recent installs of Fedora the only thing I use the command line for is the initial setup of the multimedia codecs. After that I haven’t been required to touch it.

I used to consider a terminal required to keep your desktop Linux system running. Now I look at is as an optional install for programmers.

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