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I don't think anyone can tell where we're going. Mastodon.social was the largest instance by far for some time, then at the deluge, it splintered.
Part of the reason for Mastodon to fracture is specialization - each instance does something unique. Maybe Lemmy will do the same, maybe not.
But if we end up with 3 primary instances, it's still decentralized - I think the most useful feature of Lemmy isn't that we're spread out, it's that we could be.
I think this highlights a very good point. It's totally ok for everything to gravitate to a central instance as long as that instance is run in a way that everyone is happy with. The key is the the moment something changes and users aren't happy, the decentralised nature of Lemmy gives those users an exit strategy - a way to replace the bad instance and carry on.
If a single Lemmy instance becomes the new Reddit and then pulls a move that angers the community the way Reddit has recently, users wouldn't be reduced to protests and hoping that management listen, they could just spin up new instances, mirror the content, and carry on like nothing happened.
That's the thing, I don't want one instance with too much control over others. That is a gateway to reintroducing corporate corruption into the Fediverse
Yeah, like how Spotify and the like are trying to take over Podcasts, which were designed to be open.
Yes this, and I could totally see the startrek instance growing into a hub for sci-fi related communities for example. More important than whether we are spread out is that the possibility and capability we have to spread out or migrate instances keeps instances in check by ensuring they don't have leverage or lock-in over the communities. Currently I think the main risk is communities living on 1 instance, but better instance migration tools would mostly mitigate that - imagine if you could migrate a community (which in underlying activitypub terms is very similar to a user account) to a different instance, the same way mastodon accounts can migrate between instances and keep followers.
A little bit early to be worried about this. This server is very new.
Maybe indeed it's a bit too early c:
Let's hope for a future where the Internet is the vibrant and diverse place it used to be before the big tech walled gardens.
I'm an ex-redditor, so I'm still getting my lemmy legs. I don't know how things will play out a decade from now, but I'm enjoying being here during this little sliver of social media history.
I'm kinda digging the order and the volatility. I very much enjoy how easy it is to simply up and leave one instance for another, without experiencing an abrupt shift of everything from how stuff works, to basic etiquette.
It just seems like a very difficult place to power trip.
Well, from what I've seen and read, this is mostly due to the fact that @ruud (am I doing that right?) has put in the time, effort and, most importantly, the money into providing server performance necessary for lemmy.world to survive and handle the load. I wouldn't worry about centralization with Lemmy, simply due to the fact that, should @ruud all of a sudden decide to turn into a first-rate a$$hole (definitely don't see that happening from @ruud's reputation!), the exact same software works on other servers which could supplant lemmy.world should the need arise. Long story short, Lemmy is tyrant-proof, IMO.
On a related note, I would encourage those who appreciate lemmy.world to visit the homepage and contribute when they can, since the associated costs are not insignificant. Who knows what may happen 5-10 years from now; Lemmy could become the dominant platform. I have no problem with that...
You can check stats on instances here.
lemmy.world is #2 by total user count (lemmy.ml being the 1st), but #1 by active users.
And judging by the Local posts and Local comments count, it seems that .world users interact more with communities in other instances than the local ones, unlike the other top instances.
So I would dare to say that your concern over content being monopolized by .world (based on subscribers to local communities) isn't founded - high number of users, but they tend to subscribe and interact more with communities on other instances.
This is of course anecdotal (same as your example), but I tend to see the opposite in my feed - few posts from communities on .world. It's very subjective based on what you subscribed to.
The high number of users on .world is because it still has open registration (server was recently upgraded beyond current capacity).
It makes me so fucking happy that I'm somewhere in that graph.
The high number of users on .world is because it still has open registration
I wonder if accounts on certain servers will be "prestigious" one day lol
I've posted about this before and I think a lot of people disagree, but some centralization is good. There has to be a no-thought option for when people want to join Lemmy. After they learn more about federation, they can move on to another instance.
The reason why kbin grew so fast is because for a lot of people, Kbin = kbin.social (See how "kbin" links to kbin.social on: list of alternatives on Reddit)
I believe this also explains Beehaw's growth despite their onerous rules. When someone recommends Beehaw, they don't need to think about which instance of Beehaw they want to join, they just go to Beehaw.
A lot of people are dogmatic about federation, but I quite frankly think that if you are going to die on the hill, don't complain when you die.
Isn't beehaw just another Lemmy instance?
You're not wrong. There needs to be slightly better/more informative marketing that your communities are accessible from anywhere, and locale of the server doesn't matter.
People are joining lemmy.world before they learn/understand they can access communities from any federated node (which is nearly everything except beehaw)
It doesn't help that most instances are named/marketed as being for a specific subset of people. Like French, Canadian, LGBTQ, NSFW, US midwest, etc etc. Lemmy.world is generic enough to appeal to most new users.
you have Lemmy saying, "join anywhere!", but then all the instances are like "only join here if you are X, Y, or Z!". It is understandably confusing for new people.
Exactly. Such things are only relevant for "local" content.
We need some regional americas instances, and more topical nodes like [email protected] running their own whole instance.
Federation seems to have its issues though, unfortunately. I created a post on lemmy.world earlier today (in [email protected]), and it took about 15 minutes for it to show up on lemmy.ml and sopuli.xyz.
If we consider something that is breaking news, 15 minutes is WAY too slow; there will be tons of duplicates posted from dozens of instances, even if they are posting to the exact same community.
That's most likely happening because of the over-centralization. If your origin server had been smaller federation to/from it and [email protected] would have been significantly faster. Having a no-nonsense "urgent news" lemmy instance act as a hub for faster federation would be a great value-add for the community as a whole.
Agreed, I did and am still figuring it all out. It's not so easy for those who aren't tech savvy
But only in the early stage. If you got it once, itβs like cycling a bike.
Best to understand ist to create another account on another instance and then subscribe the same community there. Then you can check which posts and comments are shown how on the feed
At some point I'll probably spin up a self-hosted instance, and rebase my operations there. In the meantime the fediverse needs content and users to reach a critical mass.
Over time I expect instances will grow and segment into more focused, specialized instances. Federation will keep things accessible so you might not need to follow. Communities of interest will grow around the instances that best reflect the spirit of that community.
Some splits will be amicable, some acrimonious, some out of necessity, others out if principle. Most will probably be because that's just where the content ends up.
Give it time. Nobody knows how this is all gonna work at scale, but at least we're doing it.
I think that is true. Could be because instances like Lemmy.ml don't let new users create an account, beehaw unfederated other instances and kbin also has some problems with federation.. So, only Lemmy.world can really thrive I guess. Other instances I have not seen that much. Maybe sh.itjust.works (or something like that) are thriving but I don't know.
There are others, but not that big.
See: lemmyverse.net/
we're doing fine here on kbin, a little too much growth tbh. lemmy.world is pretty active but it's not the only active instance :)
I think we'll see a bunch of the top communities gravitate towards a few instances, but the userbase will spread out over time. Right now people are going to the biggest, b/c they just want to get on and try it out. But over time as people learn how to work with this new system they'll venture out to others. I could see a lot of people eventually hosting their own instance just for their one user, but have no communities of its own.
But for communities, finding an instance that has the right rules and plugins available will lead them to looking for trusted servers to moderate them from. As long as what Beehaw's doing doesn't become a trend, it should be fine
programming.dev is thriving but we are also a niche, lots of good communities for developers.
There's still a world (no pun intended) of difference, between a single company with a single instance that doesn't interface with anything else. And a large instance on a federated network :)
Yup, I feel like a lot of people complaining of too much centralization donβt fully understand how the federation concept works. Even if a single instance goes down, turns evil, ect - all of the content would have already propagated to all the other instances. Itβs not ideal, because those instances would loose sync with each other since the initial instance went dark but we wouldnβt loose the content but commenters can still discuss within their own instance.
Again, not ideal - but at least the content would be preserved.
Decoupled from venture backed tech corporations is all that matters. Close second is actual people creating actual content, which feels like the case! Curious to see how moderation pans out in the long run, but at least itβs in the hands of the community itself.
It's definitely not all that matters, but it's probably the most important at this time.
A wider network is more robust in the long run, but people can always spread out later.
I think expecting individuals to solve this is a mistake. There should be something in the UI or in the backend that either automates this or makes it really really obvious that the preference should be to spread out. The problem will become more and more exasperated as/if more mainstream audiences migrate here (mainstream as in non-technical)
I think it's ok, as long as federation still works and migration is sorted out. The problem with centralisation is the control that can give. If there's a mechanism to move a community or user to a new instance without too much disruption, then the users maintain control and have recourse if the operators do something unpopular.
Mastodon has a pretty good system that automatically moves people's follows to your new account if you move. We need something like that for Lemmy.
C'mon. No single instance has as many users as any of the top 20 sub reddits I bet. Spreading out over 5 main instances is fine. The important thing is if one instance shits the bed, you have options. If the community isn't served properly they can easily jump to a new instance.
You could always unsubscribe from general communities in lemmy.world and subscribe to general communities on other instances instead.
Still most users remain on lemmy.world
To be honest it is to be expected, people will flock to the most active (and consequentially better maintained, at least subjectively) instances.
This might only change once these big instance become saturated and close signups, though even still I expect to see only a handful of Lemmy / KBin instances staying relevant once the dust is settled, especially with the recent precedents like Beehaw defederating from βtoo openβ instances.
lemmy.world's pretty big, but I'm still getting other places. More spread would always be good though. Counts from my all feed -
48 | lemmy.world
14 | beehaw.org
12 | sh.itjust.works
4 | lemmy.dbzer0.com
4 | lemmy.filmThere are many other instances. Feel free to join them :)
I wish we could transfer accounts
I think people(people includes me, I tihnk the majority of users are new to this stuff) still don't get that unless a certain instance de-federalizes others en masse, you're still gonna be able to access it's content and contribute from your instance.
Although, in general,I wouldn't be worried. Even if a certain instance is getting big, you are still not subject to the whims of some venture capitalist corp in silicon valley.