this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2024
549 points (97.1% liked)

Technology

59669 readers
2856 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
549
submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 

Edward Zitron has been reading all of google's internal emails that have been released as evidence in the DOJ's antitrust case against google.

This is the story of how Google Search died, and the people responsible for killing it.

The story begins on February 5th 2019, when Ben Gomes, Google’s head of search, had a problem. Jerry Dischler, then the VP and General Manager of Ads at Google, and Shiv Venkataraman, then the VP of Engineering, Search and Ads on Google properties, had called a “code yellow” for search revenue due to, and I quote, “steady weakness in the daily numbers” and a likeliness that it would end the quarter significantly behind.

HackerNews thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40133976

MetaFilter thread: https://www.metafilter.com/203456/The-core-query-softness-continues-without-mitigation

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 126 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Really weird to stumble onto a blog written by someone you vaguely knew in college almost 20 years ago... Anyway, nice job, Ed Zitron.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 7 months ago (1 children)

He has a podcast too called Better Offline. Just started it up a few months ago.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago

And has RSS, nice.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago

I know the feeling. I went to middle school with Hillel Wayne

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago

I'd never heard of Ed Zitron but this is the second good blog I've seen by them this week.

[–] [email protected] 112 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Wonder how this isn’t bigger news. The story is shocking, but absolutely confirms my gut feeling that google search has gone to shit in the last few years, and was fine before

[–] [email protected] 26 points 7 months ago

Prabhakar Raghavan and the McKinsey-inspired management class forced the real tech people out and shit all over the search engine intentionally to squeeze out more short-term profits. Google: An Enshittification Tale

[–] [email protected] 75 points 7 months ago

Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long for Google to kill its main product over profits. This is in every big company's textbook.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 7 months ago (4 children)
[–] [email protected] 177 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Google internal politics ousted the last of the OG Google guys and replaced him with the same person who killed Yahoo, Prabhakar Raghavan.

The general consensus is that all of the changes to Google since 2019 were driven by profit instead of trying to find things, like a search engine should. And those decisions were spearheaded by Prabhakar Raghavan, who used the training of a data scientist to run Google into the ground for short term financial gain. Sundae Prichai hired Prabhakar Raghavan directly and then promoted him from Head of Ads to Head of Search after firing the guy who had been helping guide Google Search since 1999.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 7 months ago

replaced him with the same person who killed Yahoo, Prabhakar Raghavan.

Pulled a Boeing

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago
[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago

and replaced him with the same person who killed Yahoo

Proof that everyone can fail upward.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 69 points 7 months ago (1 children)

In this rare case, I would totally suggest you read the article. It has the perfect amount of humor mixed with shocking facts (revealed via email evidence from the Google antitrust case) and it wraps it all up in a way that's easy to understand.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Hey, I follow up your suggestion - come back and read the article. No doubt, a very engaging read. Thx.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 7 months ago

Based on this particular comment chain and your decision to come back and read the article, i decided to read it as well. Very engaging, indeed! Learned quite a bit, def worth the time. I even subscribed to Ed's newsletter, lol

[–] [email protected] 34 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

A man named Raghavan has been taken on as a major operational manager for yahoo, ibm, etc. Seems his direction of their operations lines up with a sudden collapse in quality in the areas he was at. Regardless everyone seems to discuss how he is one of the best researchers in field. The dark design, and other issues, google has been seeing an increase in, for years, is basically his direction and, while he isn't the CEO, he basically runs google.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago (2 children)

As an programmer, I want to think out loud about possible technical solutions.

I would have kept the understandable / hand-made algorithm as the core of search results. If you want to do fancy machine learning, do it on the periphery and we can include the machine output in our algorithm and weight its importance by hand. This would allow us to back out of the decision, because we could lower the weight of the machine learning output as needed.

It sounds like Google jumped strait to including the machine learning in the core algorithm though, and now with a decade of complexity in the core algorithm they are no longer able to go back without huge effort.

In general, it's important to consider "is this a decision we can easily back out of?".

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Amazon (and I'm sure others) refers to this as a two way door. Good rollouts minimize impact and can be undone easily.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 31 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Google should have improved the search with more powerful tools instead of chasing numbers and greed.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 7 months ago

But that's not how capitalism works!

[–] [email protected] 30 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I keep wondering who’s gonna hire away Ben Gomes after they read this.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (9 children)

It overall seems like a good article but this is why I kind of hate Ed Zirtron's reporting:

For those unfamiliar with Google’s internal scientology-esque jargon, let me explain. A “code yellow” isn’t, as you might think, a crisis of moderate severity. The yellow, according to Steven Levy’s tell-all book about Google, refers to — and I promise that I’m not making this up — the color of a tank top that former VP of Engineering Wayne Rosing used to wear during his time at the company. It’s essentially the equivalent of DEFCON 1 and activates, as Levy explained, a war room-like situation

Overall the reporting is interesting, but weird comments like this show his naked disdain for everyone and everything in the tech industry which does not make him a particularly trustworthy source.

Like "oh my god, how dare a company choose an arbitrary alert system based on a quirky influential engineer's practices, what crazy psychos!"

If he sees the code yellow tank top thing as some crazy ridiculous thing that no company should do, then I can't really trust his interpretation of the rest of the emails and documents etc.

Later in the article, he boils everything down to literally "Heroes vs Villains", and maybe in this case both of them are archetypal representations of those roles, but based on his appearances on behind the bastards it feels more like he always needs to boil everything down to black and white, good vs evil, bastard vs non bastard, with nothing in between, which again, makes it hard to trust his overall interpretations of what he's read.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 7 months ago

It seems clear to me that he hates the people that are ruining the tech industry, ripping off customers, and pumping out shitty projects for short term stuck pumps, and he takes every opportunity to shit on those people and point out their idiosyncrasies. That's pretty much every tech CEO these days.

It's also pretty clear to me that he believes in the promise of the industry, and thinks that workers deserve better than the people that they work for.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Hunter S Thompson wrote a scathing eulogy for Richard Nixon, which I think is relevant here:

"Some people will say that words like scum and rotten are wrong for Objective Journalism -- which is true, but they miss the point. It was the built-in blind spots of the Objective rules and dogma that allowed Nixon to slither into the White House in the first place. He looked so good on paper that you could almost vote for him sight unseen. He seemed so all-American, so much like Horatio Alger, that he was able to slip through the cracks of Objective Journalism. You had to get Subjective to see Nixon clearly, and the shock of recognition was often painful."

(Non paywalled link: https://web.archive.org/web/20150213034115/https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-was-a-crook/308699/)

Sometimes, you need one or two journalists who are in a position to say "you know what? These people suck, and I'm sick of pretending they don't". It doesn't need to be every journalist, and it probably shouldn't be, but someone needs to say it.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It’s an interesting piece and starts in the traditional journalism mold, but moves much more into opinion and blog. Like going from NewsHour to Last Week Tonight. That’s not to say it’s not an interesting read or he’s not supporting his argument, but it is about persuading, not just reporting. Of course, I haven’t actually gone through all his references to see if they’re mischaracterized or taken out of context.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 7 months ago

I agree with both your comments, but there's something so satisfying about reading vitriol about a type of person you fucking hate. I kinda liked that he doesn't hide his bias or disdain for these people.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

If I hear code yellow, I assume I need to grab a mop and bucket.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›