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Class War (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] -3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yeah. For me it was the same with everyone cheering for Ukraine wanting to get into Nato and putting it in their Constitution even though it would never happen. And then everyone acting surprised when Russia invades after they said they would for years. It was so predictable that I can't help but assume that it was a deliberate trap set for Russia. Russia is wrong, but it was predictable, inevitable. But everyone was suddenly so gung-ho that possible diplomatic solutions to end this senseless war were not demanded by "the left". Still isn't.

And kinda the same with Israel now, the Oct.7 was a horrible atrocity and war crime but they blatantly lied to make it sound even more horrible in order to dehumanize and justify the war crimes they are committing now. But so many on the left are still screaming death! and the news in my "progressive" country is reporting complete propaganda.

Gen-Z is presumably just as easy to brainwash for total war with the right propaganda. Or maybe they will grow up being more resistant to it.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    when Russia invades after they said they would for years.

    They absolutely didn't. In fact, Putin ruled out war against Ukraine on many occasions, both before and after the invasions of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

    It was so predictable that I can’t help but assume that it was a deliberate trap set for Russia.

    Up until the tanks crossed the border people didn't believe Russia would invade because they couldn't believe the Russians could be that stupid. To concoct a plot on such a massive scale with a payoff that relied on the rank idiocy of Russian command doesn't seem very smart

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Putin ruled out war against Ukraine on many occasions, both before and after the invasions of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

    Well...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prelude_to_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

    In December 2021, Russia advanced two draft treaties that contained requests for what it referred to as "security guarantees", including a legally binding promise that Ukraine would not join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and a reduction in NATO troops and materiel stationed in Eastern Europe, threatening unspecified military response if those demands were not met in full. NATO rejected these requests, and the United States warned Russia of "swift and severe" economic sanctions should it further invade Ukraine.

    Are you denying this happened?

    Personally I thought these demands weren't too outrageous. With the outright rejection it was clear to me that an invasion was very likely.

    Weather it all "doesn't seem smart" or "is stupid" doesn't really matter. What is pissing me off though is that the US is doing things like that all the time except the "intellectuals" always listen to their reasons and repeat them. But if others act in the exact same way it's just amoral. What bothers me isn't so much the bigotry (one set of rules for us, another for the others), but that this way any attempt at peaceful diplomatic resolution is prevented. This makes it war propaganda. You want to negotiate with terrorists?

    Really our western civilization hasn't learned a damn thing.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    December 2021 is two months before the invasion, not "years", like you wrote previously. I agree that once the Russians stationed their army at the Ukrainian border and threatened to invade, that the invasion became fairly predictable.

    Personally I thought these demands weren’t too outrageous.

    Russia wanted to dictate the military movements and foreign policy of nine countries, otherwise they would attack a different country from those nine. I don't believe anyone has ever tried to pull a more outrageous stunt. Those demands were meant to provide cover for aggression, not to start a negotiation. It worked on you.

    the US is doing things like that all the time

    The last time the USA waged a war to take territory from a neighbour was in 1848, nearly two hundred years ago, and I don't think they've ever made demands of one country and then waged war on a completely different country when they weren't met. They do not, in fact, do things like that all the time. You can object to a lot of what the USA does, but even at their worst, they don't act like this.

    For someone who criticizes others for accepting justifications for war, you sure are very accepting of justifications for war, provided the Russians are the ones doing the justifying.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Of course Russia is playing games but it's a lie that the US and the western colonial powers don't do the same thing. This is geopolitics. That's is not moral relativism, it's just historical facts.

    If you are unwilling to negotiate and compromise with your enemy and rather go to war, then that's a consequence based on your action.

    And to justify this you need to adopt actual fascist ideology based on the myth that the US and Nato, when they do the exact same things, somehow have good reasons. Because we are "pure" and "moral". But when others, "inferior" cultures do it it's just terrorism or aggression. And they can't be trusted so negotiation is useless.

    I'm just shocked how well that propaganda still works. We haven't learned a god damn thing.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    If you are unwilling to negotiate and compromise with your enemy and rather go to war

    Who went to war in Ukraine?

    the US and Nato, when they do the exact same things, somehow have good reasons.

    But they don't do the exact same things. The USA and NATO don't annex parts of other countries.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    But they don’t do the exact same things. The USA and NATO don’t annex parts of other countries.

    I was being generous, obviously the US is far worse in terms of body count, injuries, displaced people, devastation and ruined countries, regimes changed and democracies suppressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#21st-century_wars

    Of course Russia sees Ukraine joining Nato as an act of aggression. They said this and that they won't tolerate it. They said it over and over again. And Ukraine put it in their constitution and warmongers like Stoltenberg kept encouraging them. This was all put in motion in 2014 already.

    You can say the war is worth it to not loose Crimea and in order to damage and isolate Russia. Ukraine certainly did think so, they wanted a permanent irrevocable break from any interference from Russia. They knew the war was coming and didn't want to negotiate. Fine.

    Personally I'd have preferred a compromise and have peace and a chance for improved relations later. Call me a pacifist.

    Taiwan seems to be next on the agenda, since the US is gung ho on making it their "close military partner" in their strategy to encircle China. If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    But everyone was suddenly so gung-ho that possible diplomatic solutions to end this senseless war were not demanded by “the left”. Still isn’t.

    What diplomatic solution? Unless you're selling parts of Ukraine for peace, which isn't a long term plan, the only solution is Russia leaving.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Russia isn't going to give Crimea / Sevastopol back, and they do have some legitimate claim to it.

    If you're unwilling to consider compromise to achieve a diplomatic solution you are making it inevitable that this will be decided through the use of war. And that is what I call "gung-ho".

    Also ironic that you're talking about selling parts of Ukraine off for peace, because they are currently selling their whole country to the west for continued military aid. And they'll definitely going to want to see a return on that investment. So foolish.

    PS: Lol this reminds me how Quark basically said it best: https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    they do have some legitimate claim to it.

    They recognized it as part of Ukraine on independence and then reaffirmed it with the Budapest memorandum. They have no claim, it was naked aggression

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    They altered the terms of the deal. I think they expected to being able to keep their main fleet headquarters and have friendly relations with Ukraine, not a nato armed country on their doorstep 🤷

    But this is the problem: You think that Russia should abide by moral arguments of right and wrong, while the US and Nato clearly isn't. They are pursuing their own geopolitical agenda, but you judge them with two different sets of values. "Russia can't be trusted because they are inherently evil! Diplomatic solutions are useless!"

    The result is war, a country destroyed, many lives lost, many refugees, a century of debt and neo-liberalism for those that survive. That is the result. And there WAS a diplomatic solution on the table.

    So Gen Z and Millennials are just as susceptible to cries for "total war" as all the stupid Muppets that came before them. So fuck you for being just as stupid as our generation 🤣

    They did you know that Ukraine is one of the big bread baskets of the world? This might come in handy when climate change creates food insecurity. Luckily our motivations are purely altruistic and based on higher morality...

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    They altered the terms of the deal. I think they expected to being able to keep their main fleet headquarters and have friendly relations with Ukraine

    This is incredibly revisionist. Ukraine very much wanted and tried to remain friendly with Russia, and Russia losing the lease on the ports was never in question before Russia invaded.

    It was Putin who demanded Ukraine choose between Russia and Europe, and then invaded Crimea and the East when he didn't like their choice.

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