this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
461 points (85.7% liked)
Memes
45587 readers
2281 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You're gettin downvoted, but you're right. It's the metric we're coming to use for any group. It's "okay" if your group has some fringe members that need to be distanced from. It becomes "not okay" when the majority silently accepts the horrible behavior of them.
Similarly, very few cops take abusive actions against minorities, but the number of cops who will defend that behavior in the name of "police brotherhood" closes in at 100%.
People who are downvoting you are out-of-touch with the fact that they are "the good cop who does nothing" in their own group.
Because it's not a community. It's millions of random people that have nothing to do with each other and thus don't see the loud minority or feel the need to correct them. Of course you can create small group out of them, like the vegans of twitters, but they do not represent the many 60 yo Asians that just don't eat meat.
So vegans are "special"? Can you think of other examples of groups of millions of people where there's no such expectation on their members to call out bad behavior by their fringe? I'm white; skin color is not a community, but I would still be complacent if I didn't stand against white supremacists. And in terms of randomness and "community" size, there's more white people than vegans.
"Just don't eat meat" isn't veganism. Veganism is "just WON'T eat meat... and just WON'T eat other animal products".
More importantly, look at the context. All he did was point out that vegans NEVER call down militant veganism. If he's wrong, and I'm wrong, stop saying "there's no responsibility" and show me just a few sites by "Western hip vegans who tweet" or whatever the hell subset of veganism we're going to run with, where they are calling out militant vegans on their bullshit. I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.
Let me give my counterpoint. What you're really trying to say is that vegans have no responsibility to call down militant veganism because most vegans think there's nothing wrong with it.
That was a quick comparison with white supremacy, veganism isn't nearly as important as that.
Vegans are not special. It's like if I had the same nationality as someone, do you really need to call out someone from the US that shit on European (assuming you are from the US) ? Maybe, maybe not, some do, some don't. Same for veganism.
I assumed he meant vegan aren't calling out extremists enough, obviously there are vegans calling out other vegans if that's what you want. I searched "militant are bad for veganism" and found this article https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/vegan-extremist-language that list a few vegans that are against militant.
(I did not check further on theses accounts btw, if they changed their mind since that doesn't mean there are no better example).
And I never wanted to say most vegans agree with extremists. Theses assholes are ruining veganism image. Without them people would hear vegan and think about nature, saving animals, saving the evironnement. But right now they only think about 30 years old Karen screaming at them for no reason calling people murderer and so on.
I'm not Godwinizing this. The analogy is apt. Not because Veganism is as bad as the White Supremacy movement, but because militant veganism is culturally near-identical with regards to levels of organization, cohesion, and belittling and exclusion of the opposing majority.
No, vegans aren't special. Thank you. And yes, I consider it my responsibility to call out the American anti-Mexican rhetoric that's been rekindled because if I don't, I am complicit. I am struggling not to tangent into at least 20 other incidents between old racial slurs and attacks insults about homosexuality where I've had to stand up against "my class", but the moment I hadn't done so, then I'm as bad as them.
Unfortunately, this article supports my point in a way I don't know you intended. This is an article discussing how militant vegans (including the creators of Dominion) are against the tactic of insulting non-vegans directly in their goal of getting everyone to stop eating meat. Further, this clearly rebuts your earlier claim that militant veganism isn't "a community".
Remember, if you're activists against someone's behavior, you're attacking that behavior. You need to be damn sure the behavior you're attacking is objectively wrong. Good-cop Bad-copping it doesn't change that.
Then, do the world a favor, and call them out. It probably doesn't get veganism across the line of reasonableness (stopping pushing for others to be vegan is where that happens) but it gives you a bit more of an ethical foundation.
I hate that most vegans I meet won't agree with me on animal protections in farms because my goals still involve people eating them (EDIT: them=animals. Stupid English language unclear pronouns). I consider my home state's new free range chicken law a massive win because it doesn't play with the meaning of "free range" like many big companies do, but most vegans consider it "just another step in normalizing humans eating animals". You've heard the statement "making perfect the enemy of good", right? Well, there's a step worse, which is making "my personal preference the enemy of perfect".
Let me make this clear. We exist in a world where we can scaleably give farm animals a better quality of life than they'd get in the wild with a better environmental impact than not eating them, but it requires regulations that vegans are often unwilling to openly support because it's not what they want.
Agreed. Memes become that because they're often true. "How do you know someone is a vegan?" EVERYONE has experienced that particular little joke dozens of times if not more. I used to have a coworker who aggressively preached veganism at me, as he gained a ton of weight and his health degraded. This is not me saying that vegans can't be healthy, but he was definitely doing veganism a disservice.
I've got a few close to me, and they go out of their way to shut down other people close to me. I've lived around and been involved in various ways with people in the various meat-related industries. It hurts them, and I care about them, so I care about the issue.
I don't expect everyone to feel that way. But it's like the difference between "internet atheists" who are a dime a dozen, and "that guy you actually know that thinks it's appropriate to treat non-atheists as absolute morons".
I can respect that. It's a band-aid solution in my opinion, but if I look at how I tolerate half-ass government actions, I have to honestly accept that a band-aid solution should not be faulted too much.
I think we'd diverge here, but that's ok. To me, sustainability is more important than animal comfort any time we can't feasibly have both, so long as a farmed animal is generally better off than the same species in the wild by some agreeable metric - which both cows and chickens generally are (except liberty, but few non-human species put any QoL value on "freedom").
1000% percent. Vegans are not "going to win" and have a kumbaya utopia (dystopia) where people across the world are forbidden to eat animals and harshly punished when they try. And they're sure not going to get a world where the masses choose veganism. But there's a LOT of even ranchers and hunters of all people who would stand at their side for better regulations on humane treatment.
No, I'm comparing people who cover for assholes with people who cover for assholes.
There's a block button if you want to use it. And a report button if you think I broke any rules. I, for one, just hit the latter.