this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
135 points (100.0% liked)

the_dunk_tank

15880 readers
414 users here now

It's the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.

Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.

Rule 3: No sectarianism.

Rule 4: TERF/SWERFs Not Welcome

Rule 5: No ableism of any kind (that includes stuff like libt*rd)

Rule 6: Do not post fellow hexbears.

Rule 7: Do not individually target other instances' admins or moderators.

Rule 8: The subject of a post cannot be low hanging fruit, that is comments/posts made by a private person that have low amount of upvotes/likes/views. Comments/Posts made on other instances that are accessible from hexbear are an exception to this. Posts that do not meet this requirement can be posted to [email protected]

Rule 9: if you post ironic rage bait im going to make a personal visit to your house to make sure you never make this mistake again

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 59 points 11 months ago (4 children)

the victims less numerous

North Amerika had about 10 million inhabitants before the settlers arrived and half a million natives left once the expansion of the US and Klanada was complete. Libs downplay this by saying that half of the 9.5 million were killed by plagues instead of being directly murdered, which is ignoring pox blankets, but you have to be creative when you want to deny actual genocides that leave behind material evidence.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 11 months ago (1 children)

for context, the 10 million inhabitants number is in dispute. some estimates for N. America alone go up towards 20 million or even 50 million (including Mexico).

Part One: Numbers from Nowhere

Mann first treats New England in the 17th century. He disagrees with the popular idea that European technologies were superior to those of Native Americans, using guns as a specific example. The Native Americans considered them little more than "noisemakers", and concluded they were more difficult to aim than arrows. Prominent colonist John Smith of the southern Jamestown colony noted as an "awful truth" that a gun "could not shoot as far as an arrow could fly". Moccasins were more comfortable and sturdy than the boots Europeans wore, and were preferred by most during that era because their padding offered a more silent approach to warfare. The Indian canoes could be paddled faster and were more maneuverable than any small European boats.

The contrasting approaches of "High Counters" and "Low Counters" among historians are discussed. Among the former, anthropologist Henry F. Dobyns estimated the number of pre-Columbian Native Americans as close to 100 million, while critics of the High Counters include David Henige, who wrote Numbers from Nowhere (1998).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus

The population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Low estimates were sometimes reflective of European notions of cultural and racial superiority. Historian Francis Jennings argued, "Scholarly wisdom long held that Indians were so inferior in mind and works that they could not possibly have created or sustained large populations." In 1998, Africanist Historian David Henige said many population estimates are the result of arbitrary formulas applied from unreliable sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_the_Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Estimations

it's worth noting that Tenoctitlan at around a quarter of a million inhabitants was likely the 4th largest city on earth at the time, with a population larger than current day Paris or Istanbul and had 4x the population of London. the spanish conquistadors purposely fouled it's extremely innovative water and transportation system, making disease rampant.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

While some of this could be misconstrued as a noble savage trope, they really did have many novel forms of agriculture that were far advanced beyond European practices in terms of sustaining populations at scale.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago

Simply acknowledging a concrete difference in practices isn't a "noble savage" trope. Different civilizations often have different levels of advancement in different areas.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago

The plague thing is obviously bullshit beyond the first few decades. Why were there still Indian Wars until the 1920s if they all died of disease?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago

which is ignoring pox blankets,

Also the literally several dozen wars of extermination committed by the US